Official Barry Harris Thread

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been known to hit that Bb over the F chord. I wouldn’t consider it a key change since it’s just F major over an F major chord, which is diatonic to C.

I dunno, I’m also ignorant to all the jazz rules and vocabulary.

I believe we’re talking about the distinction between using the B and Bb. Bb would sort of imply a modulation, but also you’re not missing the point here. It’s a very closely related key and Bbs are common over Fmajs that are definitely not outside C major, and #4s are quite common over tonic chords. So it’s six of one, a half dozen of the other an a lot of ways, and mostly we’re talking about a mental/aural orientation that makes a practical difference on the margins.

I am firmly in the camp of You Do You on this one.

[Christian Miller]

I believe we’re talking about the distinction between using the B and Bb. Bb would sort of imply a modulation, but also you’re not missing the point here. It’s a very closely related key and Bbs are common over Fmajs that are definitely not outside C major, and #4s are quite common over tonic chords. So it’s six of one, a half dozen of the other an a lot of ways, and mostly we’re talking about a mental/aural orientation that makes a practical difference on the margins.

I am firmly in the camp of You Do You on this one.

100%

It’s been baked into the very sense of key for ever - the idea of key being a scale being quite a modern idea really - very modern. What we think of as tonal music really saw those sort of mild chromaticisms (Bb and F#) as part of the key rather than modulations per se. And of course it shows up in jazz. Later theory bangs on about secondary dominant chords and so on, but really it comes out of the melody, and the standard basses people would write. Tonicising the II in something called ‘a Fonte’ was very typical. This is preserved in jazz language. If you’ve noticed bebop turnarounds in Bach, this is why.

The middle 8s of Alone Together or Night in Tunisia are classical fontes. Tonicise IIm, tonicise I in modern terms

Barry was ALL about this stuff. Classical music was very important to him.

Modern guitar players I think have very limited exposure to trad western tonality generally compared to pianists. It can be a bit confusing if you are used to the tonality of pop/rock music.

I know it was true for me - I don’t feel I grew up with it. My early background was more in modal and rock/pop based music. The Beatles, Zeppelin, and so on (boomer parents) rather than Mozart or GASB. Vamps, V7sus chords, bVII7s ….

Trane made sense to me right away, Bird less so.

Took me years!


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[Christian Miller]

I mean if I had to pinpoint birds harmonic style apart from say Prez, I’d say it was in that tonicisation of the ii chord. With a VI7b9


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[Petimar]

I find his organization to be remarkably simple and Illuminating.

Me too!

[Navdeep_Singh]

Thomas Echols has a new video, giving samples from his new book on generating linear playing—i.e, lines using BH’s methods. I ordered the book. Probably best to read it before really grokking what’s in the video.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Interesting revelation from Thomas in the forward to the book:

”.The Monophonic side was a lot trickier. I practiced these techniques regularly (and with zeal) for about 7-8 years before they made any sense to me as a means for actually learning to improvise.It’s a bit embarrassing to admit this, but it’s true.”.

He is a trained classical guitarist.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting- it’s mostly the ‘monophonic’ stuff I found useful (Barry didn’t use this term, he called it ‘improvisation’ class)

I get why a Classically trained player would find it harder. Harmony is more familiar, polyphonic left hand technique makes Barry’s harmony stuff more accessible. Single note lines require a jazz sensibility and the ability execute fast swinging eights etc. Especially at the tempos Barry used to call these things in.

Again, get the DVDs and play through them lol. Then, pick up the tiny pieces of yourself off the floor …

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[joe2758]

I play with classical technique and don't play many lines except as fills. I use the various 6th dims scales (including subs) for lines, and I do wonder sometimes why there is such a disconnect between the two approaches("improv" vs "harmony"). I guess soloing that way has different requirements (I could just never get to bebop tempos, or even close), but I'm not sure what. Maybe easier to teach to monophonic instruments? I mean, there must be a reason he bases it off of a 7 note scale rather than the symmetrical scales he uses for harmony. The latter would have symmetry as a starting point, as where using dom 7 scale "adds a note" right off the bat. Anyway, with single note playing as my weakness, making lines with 6 dim scales was very beneficial. I say this after years of trying the direct way he teaches lines; it just didn't work for me.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I play with classical technique and don't play many lines except as fills. I use the various 6th dims scales (including subs) for lines, and I do wonder sometimes why there is such a disconnect between the two approaches("improv" vs "harmony"). I guess soloing that way has different requirements (I could just never get to bebop tempos, or even close), but I'm not sure what. Maybe easier to teach to monophonic instruments? I mean, there must be a reason he bases it off of a 7 note scale rather than the symmetrical scales he uses for harmony. The latter would have symmetry as a starting point, as where using dom 7 scale "adds a note" right off the bat. Anyway, with single note playing as my weakness, making lines with 6 dim scales was very beneficial. I say this after years of trying the direct way he teaches lines; it just didn't work for me.

I think the key to Barry’s stuff, either in terms of multiple voices or with lines, is it gives us infinite things to play, using little modular components and ideas, motifs, cells, that, once we internalize, allow us to play freely in all sorts of directions, so that we can get on with the REALLY important stuff: the idiomatic rhythmic feel and jazz phrasing. As Dizzy said, “I fill my barlines with rhythm and throw some notes at it”. Barry can help supply with the “some notes” part, not in a scripted way, but a fully internalized manner.