Official Barry Harris Thread

[Mick-7]

LOLOLOL! Here we are, many years later, 64 pages in and we are back to “whatever that is”.

It’s quite a lot, whatever it may be. Lots of bang for the buck.

Yes, it's a very long thread and I looked at it today for the first time, but it looks to me like an old wine bottle with a new label - a different way of describing an old concept.

"In the example (Amin7-D7-Gmaj7) Amin7 (C6) actually comes from a different scale than the tonic Gmaj7."

The IV in a major key is a major chord so that is to be expected.

[garybaldy]

What I haven't heard people talk about much is the ii minor application sort of "approximates" the Dorian scale with an Aeolian in a different key.

In the example (Amin7-D7-Gmaj7) Amin7 (C6) actually comes from a different scale than the tonic Gmaj7. In other words it is the same 6th diminished scale you would use to harmonize a tonic C major.

I have used the system in the past without paying too much attention to this fact, but it's interesting nevertheless.

What about instead of using the C6dim scale for the Am7, use the "6th on the 5th" ?

[Tal_175]

What about instead of using the C6dim scale for the Am7, use the "6th on the 5th" ?

You mean using G6dim scale?

[garybaldy]

You mean using G6dim scale?

Yes. I believe that's one of BH's options on a maj6. Bill Graham covers this in his extensive video posted on this thread.

[Tal_175]

Yes. I believe that's one of BH's options on a maj6. Bill Graham covers this in his extensive video posted on this thread.

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

[garybaldy]

The middle 8 of Take the A Train has always been a bit of a conundrum for me. Ie the first for bars of IV. Do you consider it to be a key change (as it's 4 bars) and play over it as if it's a I chord or do you keep to the song's key?

[pamosmusic]

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

Sixth on the fifth is using the sixth chord from the fifth of the parent chord, so G6 over C6.

Alan’s book is heavy on applications, so he might cover specific cases that don’t seem to meet your criteria, but he also talks about the subject broadly. I’ve found the little variations on the V-I movement to be pretty handy.

[mr. beaumont]

The middle 8 of Take the A Train has always been a bit of a conundrum for me. Ie the first for bars of IV. Do you consider it to be a key change (as it's 4 bars) and play over it as if it's a I chord or do you keep to the song's key?

Kind of both...it's definitely hanging around long enough to feel like we've switched keys...but check out how good that B natural sounds on it...

[Tal_175]

Sixth on the fifth is using the sixth chord from the fifth of the parent chord, so G6 over C6.

Alan’s book is heavy on applications, so he might cover specific cases that don’t seem to meet your criteria, but he also talks about the subject broadly. I’ve found the little variations on the V-I movement to be pretty handy.

True but I don't think the point I raised is addressed in the book.

To recap:

Suppose you have a ii V in C:
Dmin7 G7 Cmaj

The typical recipe is to use F6dim over Dmin7 and use Dmin6 or Abmin6 over G7.

But the harmonized scale over Dmin7(F6dim) doesn't have the note B (it's got Bb). Now some treat the 6th (B) in the ii minor chord as an avoid note. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that as the reason for the lack of B in the harmony, lol.

In chord-melody applications, if you are harmonizing a scalar melody (or bass line) over the ii chord using this approach, this is a bit of a problem.
The 6th on the 5th examples I looked at also seem to not use that note.

[garybaldy]

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

I agree it's not the 6dim from the 6th. It's 6dim from the 5th.
So if you use the G6dim scale (over the Am7 in the II V I in G maj) instead of the C6dim you are alternating the G6 chord with the F#dim chord which can be looked at as alternating Cmaj7/9 (G6 is the upper extensions) with Cdim. That eliminates the F nat note.

[pamosmusic]

True but I don't think the point I raised is addressed in the book.

To recap:

Suppose you have a ii V in C:
Dmin7 G7 Cmaj

The typical recipe is to use F6dim over Dmin7 and use Dmin6 or Abmin6 over G7.

But the harmonized scale over Dmin7(F6dim) doesn't have the note B (it's got Bb). Now some treat the 6th (B) in the ii minor chord as an avoid note. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that as the reason for the lack of B in the harmony, lol.
In chord-melody applications, if you are harmonizing a scalar melody (or bass line) over the ii chord using this approach, this is a bit of a problem.
The 6th on the 5th examples I looked at also seem to not use that note.

Doesnt it though? The C6 would have the B, bing bang boom.

The scales are straightforwardly combination of the parent chord and the diminished chord. So that’s why there’s no B in the F6. But there is the open possibility of a chord scale that does include it the B by using that 6th on the 5.

[Tal_175]

Doesnt it though? The C6 would have the B, bing bang boom.

The scales are straightforwardly combination of the parent chord and the diminished chord. So that’s why there’s no B in the F6. But there is the open possibility of a chord scale that does include it the B by using that 6th on the 5.

Yes, 6th on the 5th if used as 6dim would bring that note. Did you find a 6th on the 5th application in Alan's book that actually does that though?

The thing is, I can use a variety of approaches to harmonize that note. What I find interesting is, the 6dim applications that I have seen don't do it.

[Tal_175]

I agree it's not the 6dim from the 6th. It's 6dim from the 5th.
So if you use the G6dim scale (over the Am7 in the II V I in G maj) instead of the C6dim you are alternating the G6 chord with the F#dim chord which can be looked at as alternating Cmaj7/9 (G6 is the upper extensions) with Cdim. That eliminates the F nat note.

Sorry, I meant 6dim on the 5th also. Yes, that would work. But as I said in the previous post, what I find interesting is that the approaches that are explicitly shown and discussed don't include that note.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, 6th on the 5th if used as 6dim would bring that note. Did you find a 6th on the 5th application in Alan's book that actually does that, though?

The thing is, I can use a variety of approaches to harmonize that note. What I find interesting is, the 6dim applications that I have seen don't do it.

Cant recall off the top of my head. Theres also treating the ii like a minor since that has the m6.

Otherwise, I’m not a BH purist, so if something doesn’t fit, I just move to a different thing.

[garybaldy]

Kind of both...it's definitely hanging around long enough to feel like we've switched keys...but check out how good that B natural sounds on it...

I've always preferred the B nat. Ofcourse Strayhorn carefully kept to the the notes of the IVmaj7 arpeggio in the melody!!!
I've played bass for many years and I've generally adhered to what I was told as a teenager (in the 70s) which was, with passing notes between chord tones, to keep to notes of the key you are in. Over the last 50 years though I've learned that there are exceptions ofcourse.

[A. Kingstone]

True but I don't think the point I raised is addressed in the book.

To recap:

Suppose you have a ii V in C:
Dmin7 G7 Cmaj

The typical recipe is to use F6dim over Dmin7 and use Dmin6 or Abmin6 over G7.

But the harmonized scale over Dmin7(F6dim) doesn't have the note B (it's got Bb). Now some treat the 6th (B) in the ii minor chord as an avoid note. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that as the reason for the lack of B in the harmony, lol.

In chord-melody applications, if you are harmonizing a scalar melody (or bass line) over the ii chord using this approach, this is a bit of a problem.
The 6th on the 5th examples I looked at also seem to not use that note.

Hi Tal.

The defining factor of Dm7 into G7 is the change of D Minor Seventh's 'C' note to G Seventh's 'B' note.


Barry's F6o has 'C' and Dm6o & Abm6o have 'B' notes making the move strong.


See pages 39-45.

[Tal_175]

Hi Tal.

The defining factor of Dm7 into G7 is the change of D Minor Seventh's 'C' note to G Seventh's 'B' note.


Barry's F6o has 'C' and Dm6o & Abm6o have 'B' notes making the move strong.


See pages 39-45.

Hi Alan,
Thanks for your response. That's my understanding as well. I just thought it was interesting that F6o amounts to using the harmonized D natural minor scale over Dmin7 which implies a different key than the one the progression is in. So in a chord-melody situation if we were using F6o to Dm6o &Abm6o to harmonize a melody over II V, we would be "avoiding" the note B over Dmin (instead playing Bb and C, skipping over B) or we would be using a different approach if there is a B in the melody.

In comping contexts, if the soloist using the typical BH concept of playing the G dominant scale over II-V, the comping pattern of II would also be a little bit out. I guess Bb is a passing note in the typical applications of the 6 diminished chords. I used it this way before without thinking about it after all.

[bediles]

Tonicizing the ii, so not dorian.

If you want to keep the voices moving when harmonizing the 6th degree I've found an aux dim works and sounds nice as it keeps the dim sonority (vi dim7).

6th on the 5th (emi7 on ami7) is too 7sus for me.

Depends on the melodic/harmonic rhythm too. Could just diatonic or chromatic plane but then you're getting away from BH... or are you?

[Tal_175]

Tonicizing the ii, so not dorian.

If you want to keep the voices moving when harmonizing the 6th degree I've found an aux dim works and sounds nice as it keeps the dim sonority (vi dim7).

Makes sense. Especially when descending, right? It would be the bIIIo -> ii motion in inversions.

[pamosmusic]

Hi Alan,
Thanks for your response. That's my understanding as well. I just thought it was interesting that F6o amounts to using the harmonized D natural minor scale over Dmin7 which implies a different key than the one the progression is in. So in a chord-melody situation if we were using F6o to Dm6o &Abm6o to harmonize a melody over II V, we would be "avoiding" the note B over Dmin (instead playing Bb and C, skipping over B) or we would be using a different approach if there is a B in the melody.

In comping contexts, if the soloist using the typical BH concept of playing the G dominant scale over II-V, the comping pattern of II would also be a little bit out. I guess Bb is a passing note in the typical applications of the 6 diminished chords. I used it this way before without thinking about it after all.

Worth mentioning that I don’t think BH would’ve thought of this as tonicizing the ii chord (or IV). It would just be internal motion within the prevailing harmony. Alan and Christian could obviously give more detail on this, but this is one important way that his approach seems extremely idiosyncratic to me (in a good way). In a lot of ways he’s reorganized or renamed things that aren’t terribly different than other approaches***, but this is an area where I think the actual concept is quite different than chord scales in the way we think of them normally.

*** this isn’t a knock. Organization is a teachers job mostly and I find his organization to be remarkably simple and Illuminating.

[Tal_175]

Worth mentioning that I don’t think BH would’ve thought of this as tonicizing the ii chord (or IV). It would just be internal motion within the prevailing harmony. Alan and Christian could obviously give more detail on this, but this is one important way that his approach seems extremely idiosyncratic to me (in a good way). In a lot of ways he’s reorganized or renamed things that aren’t terribly different than other approaches***, but this is an area where I think the actual concept is quite different than chord scales in the way we think of them normally.

*** this isn’t a knock. Organization is a teachers job mostly and I find his organization to be remarkably simple and Illuminating.

Using a 6dim scale over its chord can be thought of as two ways:
- Harmonizing the scale by using inversions over the chord tones and passing diminished chords over the non-chord tones.
- Creating a movement by tonicizing the chord with the V7b9 - I motion.

(We are leaving the borrowing notions aside for now to look at the nature of the scale).

For some chord types, these are the same things. For example if you use C6o over Cmaj6 chord, you'd be harmonizing all the notes of the C major scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B. There will also be an added diminished note Ab. So you can use this movement to both harmonize melodies in Cmaj or create motion over a static major chord with G7b9 Cmaj7 inversions.

But this symmetry is broken when it comes to using the 6dim scale over the ii chord in a ii-V progression.

F6o has : F G A Bb C D E with the added diminished note Db. So starting from D we got D E F G A Bb C. In other words, we are introducing Bb and removing B temporarily in a progression that's in the key of C (Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7).

This still works perfectly well if we hear the movement as tonicizing Dmin since Bb is now the b9 of A7b9. The note B would be less ideal since the target is a minor chord.

[bediles]

Makes sense. Especially when descending, right? It would be the bIIIo -> ii motion in inversions.

Yeah, makes sense ascending or decending. Very similar vibe to biiidim and its and inversion of biii too. If we wanted to get technical/tangential for a sec, typically Dim chord functions are chosen based on context to where the chord leads to. So not all inversions of dim chords have the same function.

[AllanAllen]

The middle 8 of Take the A Train has always been a bit of a conundrum for me. Ie the first for bars of IV. Do you consider it to be a key change (as it's 4 bars) and play over it as if it's a I chord or do you keep to the song's key?

I’ve been known to hit that Bb over the F chord. I wouldn’t consider it a key change since it’s just F major over an F major chord, which is diatonic to C.

I dunno, I’m also ignorant to all the jazz rules and vocabulary.

[Christian Miller]

I’m not a great person to ask about the Barry harmonic concept, but it struck me that many of the basic options of the ii V I are folded into the I maj6-dim chord.

One can construct a IIm7 and a IIm7b5 chord in the maj6-dim. I tend to elide that chord into the maj6-dim diminished/borrowed note stuff, and if I have longer on the II you can run the scale for the chord (IV6 or IIm6, say) and treat it as a thing in itself.

This maps perfectly well to the way it’s treated in tunes, for example Honesuckle/scrapple - at least in bop (but ii chords are rarer in swing music anyway.) The b6 is a natural thing to play here.

(If I go for IIm6 I’m kind of leaning into the idea of an extended V7 sound - Charlie Christian style. IIm7 gives the suspension.)

It’s the sort of thing where context and what is pleasing to your ears seems the way of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been known to hit that Bb over the F chord. I wouldn’t consider it a key change since it’s just F major over an F major chord, which is diatonic to C.

I dunno, I’m also ignorant to all the jazz rules and vocabulary.

I believe we’re talking about the distinction between using the B and Bb. Bb would sort of imply a modulation, but also you’re not missing the point here. It’s a very closely related key and Bbs are common over Fmajs that are definitely not outside C major, and #4s are quite common over tonic chords. So it’s six of one, a half dozen of the other an a lot of ways, and mostly we’re talking about a mental/aural orientation that makes a practical difference on the margins.

I am firmly in the camp of You Do You on this one.