Official Barry Harris Thread

[AllanAllen]

Sometimes specificity, context, and high standards are pretty good for learning, actually.

Actually I get his point now that he posted those songs. Diatonic vs chromatic. I dunno, I hear it close to Blue Monk. Close but wrong is still wrong. Especially online when we are using words to talk about music.

[AllanAllen]

It has nothing to do with "not exactly perfect", it is a different thing. The 3-to-5 Monk move is a chromatic cliché. That (blue) note between 4 and 5 is fundamental.

Do you hear Blue Monk in Till There Was You as well? Because the melody goes up diatonically 3 4 5 as well ...

I get it now, thanks.

[Bop Head]

You can’t hear it because it’s not exactly perfect? I’m done. This is not conducive to learning.

Papa Joe Jones throws cymbal at young Yardbird for messing up jam session. Yardbird complains: "This is not conducive to learning!"

Sorry, could not resist ...

I was also thinking about what BH would have replied at a workshop from what I have seen in countless workshop videos.

OTOH there is that video where he explains to a Spanish woman that you can play Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Dm7 Cm7 (sort of "constant structure substitution" other schools of thought might have called this) for almost 20 minutes until she finally gets it.

[Bop Head]

I get it now, thanks.

BTW there is a third way to go from major third to natural fifth: going directly from 3 via #4 as chromatic approach to the 5:

3 - 4# - 5. No natural 4.

Do not have an example melody at hand ATM unfortunately.

People like to overcomplicate this one by bringing the ancient people of Lydians into play for the explanation.

[AllanAllen]

I often times think about things the wrong way, type out a reply and then later on realize how I’m wrong.

We don’t have to bring lydians into it. I’m not into modes yet.

[Bop Head]

Papa Joe Jones throws cymbal at young Yardbird for messing up jam session. Yardbird complains: "This is not conducive to learning!"

Sorry, could not resist ...

I was also thinking about what BH would have replied at a workshop from what I have seen in countless workshop videos.

OTOH there is that video where he explains to a Spanish woman that you can play Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Dm7 Cm7 (sort of "constant structure substitution" other schools of thought might have called this) for almost 20 minutes until she finally gets it.

I just realized I forgot to mention that this reharmonisation serves to connect the Cmaj7 ending of section A1 of All The Things You Are to the Cm7 at the beginning of A2 in a nice way and to bring some movement into those meas. 7 and 8.

[Christian Miller]

The salient thing for me about the 'Monk move' is it was four chords, the last of which is the leading tone/lower neighbour of the next next in a fourth wise progression. This makes it a great thing for swing rhythm guitar.

As a result it connects chords really well in progression like Sweet Georgia Brown, the Rhythm Changes B section (and I-IV in a blues) and so on.

I'm certain there must be some classical examples, probably 19th century. It does show up in Cockney 'knees up' music lol.

(As a partimento weirdo I see it as a 3 step Rule of the Octave with a chromatic diminished chord between 2 and 3.)

Monk's harmony was like a distorted/cubist version of those tropes which filtered through ragtime and early jazz. Monk's teacher was James P Johnson.

If you compare Monk and the Artie Shaw thing I posted, it's interesting the extent to which the former represents a sort of rhythmically displaced reimagining of the latter.

[Christian Miller]

BTW there is a third way to go from major third to natural fifth: going directly from 3 via #4 as chromatic approach to the 5:

3 - 4# - 5. No natural 4.

Do not have an example melody at hand ATM unfortunately.

People like to overcomplicate this one by bringing the ancient people of Lydians into play for the explanation.

I remember Barry talking about the scale for bar 5 of ATTYA being 'Db major with a G natural'

I remember the class members sharing a glance, and very much thinking better of saying anything.

[James W]

People like to overcomplicate this one by bringing the ancient people of Lydians into play for the explanation.

I don't find that term complicated, let alone 'overcomplicated'.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, I understand Barry's reasons for being critical of mainstream jazz edu and its terms. It is historical, and there's quite a bit to dig into there if you want.

OTOH form my perspective it seems perverse not to use a term like Lydian if it is understood as a label, for, well a "Db major scale with a G natural", if only because it's shorter. I try to make it clear how Barry would have described it tho. He usually had his reasons for picking terms.

[Bop Head]

I remember Barry talking about the scale for bar 5 of ATTYA being 'Db major with a G natural'

I remember the class members sharing a glance, and very much thinking better of saying anything.

(I have posted this already before ... somewhere)

BTW Db major is an alternative, too.

[Bop Head]

I just realized I forgot to mention that this reharmonisation serves to connect the Cmaj7 ending of section A1 of All The Things You Are to the Cm7 at the beginning of A2 in a nice way and to bring some movement into those meas. 7 and 8.

Finally found the video. Now somebody say Barry was impatient.

[Christian Miller]

(I have posted this already before ... somewhere)

BTW Db major is an alternative, too.

Sure, yes. I wasn't really discussing scale options on ATTYA.

I mean it more to say - Barry did sometimes talk about the same stuff as mainstream jazz edu in a different vocabulary.

[PMB]

BTW there is a third way to go from major third to natural fifth: going directly from 3 via #4 as chromatic approach to the 5:

3 - 4# - 5. No natural 4.

Do not have an example melody at hand ATM unfortunately.

People like to overcomplicate this one by bringing the ancient people of Lydians into play for the explanation.

Hoyt Curtin's theme for The Jetsons immediately springs to mind (the musical 'missing link' between Leonard Bernstein's Maria and Danny Elfman's The Simpsons?):

[A. Kingstone]

Finally found the video. Now somebody say Barry was impatient.

That must have been a singers class. Nobody is holding an instrument.

Amazing capture of Barry Harris.

Those non first language classes really challenged my ears.

That last little bit - the Last minute - It's like 10 years of attendance. Barry says something to the piano player about posture, with astounding intimacy and enormous subtly, to move their body thus.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Using Both Families derived From the Diminished Chord: dominant 7th and m6:INTERCHANGEABLY and with complete FREEDOM.


Key of G:


Dominants: D7-F7-Ab7-B7
Minor 6th: Ebm6-Gb6-Am6-Cm6


1. m6 is always a half step up on the dominant 7.
2. m6 is always on the M3 of the dominant 7.
3. Chromatic Harmonization


D: D7: D7 with R on top
Eb: Ebm6 (R); OR Cm6 (m3); OR F7 (b7) or Ab7 (P5)
E: Am6 (P5)
F: F7 (R)
F# Gbm6 (R): D7 (3rd)B7 (P5)’ Ab7 (7th)


Resolution:
G G6 (R) ORCm6 (P5) Eb6 (m3)


Ab: Ab7 (R)
A: D7 (p5) OR F7 (M3) B7 (75h) or Am6 (R)
Bb: Ebm6 (P5); Gbm6 (m3)
B: B7 (R)
C: Cm6 (R): D7 (7th) Ab7 (M3) Am6 (m3)
Db: Gb6 (P5)

[Navdeep_Singh]

A more complete list:


Barry Harris FAMILY of Harmonic materials for “Stormy Weather”


Key of G:


D7-F7-Ab7-B7
Ebm6-Gbm6-Am6-Cm6


1. m6 is always a half step up on the dominant 7.
2. m6 is always on the M3 of the dominant 7.
3. Chromatic Harmonization Possibilities Using two families interchangeably


D: D7: D7 with R on top
Eb (6): Ebm6 (R); OR Cm6 (m3); OR F7 (b7) or Ab7 (P5) Gb-6, B7 (M3)
E: Am6 (P5)
F: F7 (R)
F# (5) Gbm6 (R): D7 (3rd)B7 (P5)’ Ab7 (7th) A-6


Resolution:
G (2): G6 (R) ORCm6 (P5)


Ab(3): Ab7 (R) OR Cm6 (15b36)
A(6): D7 (p5) OR F7 (M3) B7 (75h) or Am6 (R) OR C-6
Bb(2): Ebm6 (P5); Gbm6 (m3)
B: B7 (R)
C(5): Cm6 (R): D7 (7th) Ab7 (M3) Am6 (m3) Eb-6 (5b36)
Db: Gb6 (P5)

[Navdeep_Singh]

It’s not enough to “know” the above, if one wants to play using BH methods. These kinds of movements have to automatic muscle memory stuff, fully ingrained, across each string set and integrating string sets, between both sets of families (dom7 and the m6) as well a the 6th-dim chords. It has to be automatic, like breathing. This stuff is not esoteric, it is elemental. How many of us can do it, automatically?

[rlrhett]

Did Barry Harris ever relate the three family of diminished to functional harmony? It's tempting to think three families equal tonic/subdominant/dominant, but it doesn't seem to match up that way... or does it? I love playing with "brothers and sisters" for substitution, but I don't have any sense of when one should change families and in which direction.

This remains a big gap in my understanding of the harmonic theory. Is it laid out somewhere in a book or videos?

[P4guitar]

Did Barry Harris ever relate the three family of diminished to functional harmony? It's tempting to think three families equal tonic/subdominant/dominant, but it doesn't seem to match up that way... or does it? I love playing with "brothers and sisters" for substitution, but I don't have any sense of when one should change families and in which direction.

This remains a big gap in my understanding of the harmonic theory. Is it laid out somewhere in a book or videos?

I'm just beginning to explore this myself. My early assumption (subject to new knowledge of course) is to look at what chord tones the members of the other families introduce and choose according to what altered notes (b9, b5, #5, ....) give me the sound I'm looking for. This implies of course that I've memorized the effects of the family, which I haven't...yet.

A complication I'm struggling with is what scale (Maj6dim, min6dim,...) to use with a given family member.

[Christian Miller]

Did Barry Harris ever relate the three family of diminished to functional harmony? It's tempting to think three families equal tonic/subdominant/dominant,

that’s an Erno Lendvai thing isn’t it?

I never head him talk about music in Reimannian terms.

but it doesn't seem to match up that way... or does it? I love playing with "brothers and sisters" for substitution, but I don't have any sense of when one should change families and in which direction.

This remains a big gap in my understanding of the harmonic theory. Is it laid out somewhere in a book or videos?

I don’t think that really exists.

I feel Barry was less interested in theory than he was in practice. Like the old masters he taught through specific cases, not in overarching theory.

[rlrhett]

that’s an Erno Lendvai thing isn’t it?

Yes, must be. I remember Elmo talking about that in the “Number 5, Letter Q” episode…

Ok, no. I have no idea. I’m just a schlub with the Howard Rhees/Alan Kingstone material.

It is hard to discuss music on a written forum without resorting to theory terms, but I’m actually asking a practical question.

Thomas Echols demonstrates using nothing but drop2 Maj6 or Min6 chord over a standard (“Alone together”, I think). I like it!

Sometimes he stays within the same family, sometimes he changes family. Ii->V seems to consistently be the same family. The rest is a mystery to me. He talks as if it is related to the function of the chord, but he’s never explicit.

I’ve asked directly what in an existing chart indicates to him which family he is playing at any given time. Not for the first time he refused to answer. I assume this isn’t some black art only he understands, so I thought I would consult you guys.

Is it just a matter of following the chart? A Maj chord is from the family of its root, a V7 is from the family of its b9. All ii-V’s are just siblings of the same family. Beyond that I should stop trying to second guess the Real Book?

It just is what it is? Or can I relate the families in a consistent way to the way a song moves? Can I see a plagal cadence as always a change down in family and a true cadence as up? Is the relationship between a tonal center’s family and a sub-dominant”s family always the same? Etc.


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[Tal_175]

Sometimes he stays within the same family, sometimes he changes family. Ii->V seems to consistently be the same family. The rest is a mystery to me. He talks as if it is related to the function of the chord, but he’s never explicit.

If you are talking about comping, ii->V is not typically the same family. Using the same family is one variation but more commonly:

Lets say Dmin7 | G7 | Cmaj7,
Dmin7: F6dim
G7: Dmin6Dim or Abmin6Dim
Cmaj7:C6dim or G6/C6

[A. Kingstone]

…

Ok, no. I have no idea. I’m just a schlub with the Howard Rees/Alan Kingstone material.
...............

My kind of schlub.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I stopped thinking about theory-etudes-chord-scale theory-and just started applying this method, using the 6th diminished plus both families associated with the diminished, learned to play those across all the string sets, learned to move from to another, extemporaneously and hopefully freely. And applied it all to songs from the G.A.S.

It’s a liberating feeling. I’m doing, not thinking. In doing X, I think about the colors such actions achieve. As opposed to doing Y.