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I wanted to start a big meta thread on rhythm, syncopation, accents, polyrhythms, swing, time – feel . This is the most important part of this music, the part I am seriously trying to study it now and will devote all my time to this subject. I bought a couple of Mike Longo books on how to create lines from rhythms and how to read polyrhythms and syncopation correctly . I just started reading the one on how to sight read syncopated rhythms.
Mike's starting point borrows from Indian classical thinking --- adding rhythms across the page, counting the number of beats per hit and incrementing them. This is different then the western concept of subdividing rhythms: what we know as subdividing the beat into one and two and three and etc .
This is the fundamental difference between additive rhythms and divisive rhythms.
His point is that students are hampered in their ability to read and play complex rhythms because they are taught the western convention on sight reading rhythms. Western art music is predicated on melody and harmony, not on syncopation, poly-rhythms and asymmetrical accents. The trombone player an educator Ed Byrne always talked about the prevalence of motor rhythms in European classical music: streams and streams of unhit eighth and 16th notes. Thus, for example, in western art music, rhythms are generally group symmetrically because they are played symmetrically. A measure of 16th notes will be grouped into four groups of four with the accent on the first note of each grouping. Generally speaking.
Jazz however is syncopated music and has lots and lots of asymmetrical hits and accents . I've posted a concrete example of a complex jazz rhythm that Mike discusses and how to analyze it using the concept of additive rhythms .
The basic premise of conceiving rhythms as additive rhythms is that they will be grouped according to how they are hit and accented . This will give the student a far clearer understanding of what to play and how to play it, rhythmically speaking.Last edited by NSJ; 10-02-2016 at 10:33 PM.
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10-02-2016 10:27 PM
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Cool. I'm always interested in this kind of stuff. I learned the beginnings the hard way in high school, trying to read the crazy notated rhythms from guitar magazines. I did it the old "one ee and uh...." way because that's all I knew to do. Interestingly, I think your mind eventually arrives at thinking of it in this additive way, even if you initially approach it trying to count the other way. It really makes mindnumbing complexity suddenly simple. I do some of this with strum patterns for kids. Usually fruit: "watermelon, strawberry, strawberry, strawberry, strawberry". Ha.
Very interested. Keep us updated.
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Subscribed.
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While, I don't think it's necessarily true that Mike (consciously) borrows from Indian ideas, I am intrigued by the connection.
(Actually that should be no surprise. Apparently there is a fundamental rhythmic connection between the subcontinent through to Spain via the Gypsies, and through into the New World including Cuba, and presumably New Orleans from there.)
EDIT: everything I talk about here is to do with the DVD's not the sightreading books. Obviously related but might not make much sense if you haven't looked at them. I'll leave it here anyway.
Anyway, one of the things I think is fundamental about Mike's approach is it's experiential nature. You might learn to play the hidden five, for example, by counting it, but ultimately that's just starters, to make sure it is correct. Mike is all about learning to feel that five as a fundamental part of your music making.
The real work is done on the Djembe, and from there in the exercises which seek to unlock new ways of phrasing in your playing, and open the door to... somewhere else. What Joel was talking about on his thread. That's where the real music gets made, right?
I would imagine there is a analogous conception in the Indian traditions?
It's not really about musicology or math, although that's interesting in it's own sake. The breakdown is purely their to help you learn it. It's interesting BTW to compare the notation to what is actually played on DVD III, for instance.
(AFAIK in traditional West African drumming, the rhythms aren't broken down at all. M-Base seems to be influenced by this thinking, for example, in that they ask students to play independent phasing rhythms without thinking about how they line up.... A very different way of thinking and very cool when it 'clicks'.)
I mention this because I feel there's a lot of stuff that addresses the math of rhythm in the same way that there is a lot of stuff that addresses the math of harmony. The thing is it's one thing to know a scale, for example, it's quite another to have it so ingrained in your being that you don't even notice it anymore.
It's certainly true of the rhythm side of it.Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2016 at 08:16 AM.
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BTW, NSJ, how are you finding the exercises? How are you getting on with them?
EDIT: I see you have the Sight-reading book. I like this book an awful lot.
BTW Did you get the DVD's?Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2016 at 08:14 AM.
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I just have the first DVD, which is really just the intro and a lot of anecdotes. It seems that the bulk of his method is in the second one, where he demonstrates his specific ideas on the drum with the student one on one , which I will get after I go through the books thoroughly .
I think his ideas relate to Hindustani and Carnatic music only indirectly in so far as they borrow from the concept of additive rhythm.
The system of talas make western art music rhythm ideas sound like kindergarten
I've just come to the realization that if I don't get this aspect right, the time, feel, syncopation, polyrhythms, my playing will never improve .
Basically, when you think of very sophisticated concepts of rhythm, you think of Africa, north India, South India, and Indonesia .
La Habana, New Orleans, São Paulo-- they are all understood by way of Africa .
I think the concept of radically altering the way we count rhythms, which Mike does, is kind of important. Of course it's math, there's going to be some elements of organization and counting of course .
But it's as you said: it's all about re-orientating oneself to put the work in, experientially speaking, on things that are important .
I'm pretty much going to devote all my thinking and work on how to play this music, for the next several months straight, on this stuff and also on Barry Harris. Basically it's time to hit the woodshed big time. Before I was working a lot last two months, I put in 3 to 5 hours a day on music. Time to do that again but with real laser sharp focus .
The second book, which is on how to create melodies from rhythms, strikes me as Dizzy Gillespie 101. From what I understand, James Moody told him to write it after he explained it to James and Mr. Moody himself became a convert. Keep in mind, he and James were playing at Dizzys band for years as equals. It just goes to show you that you're never too old to learn something new or think about something in a new way . The best ones are always learning and always growing.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
From what I've read and heard, the African tradition is mostly oral/experiential, kind of in line with what you guys are talking about. Originally Posted by NSJ
I think his ideas relate to Hindustani and Carnatic music only indirectly in so far as they borrow from the concept of additive rhythm.
The system of talas make western art music rhythm ideas sound like kindergarten
Purely speculating, I would assume that the Indian connection has mostly to do with codifying this way of understanding rhythm, which is present in both cultures' music. I would assume that the African tradition doesn't really have as much of a "grammar" for discussion and analysis as much. Western music is probably even worse.There's really no framework for dealing with polyrhythms in a way which really enforces the actual relationships in western music notation/organization.
The Indian systems have codified it, and developed sophisticated vocabulary/ "grammar" (both verbal and kinesthetic, kind of like melodic solfeggio is with hand signs) for dealing with complex, multilayered rhythmic structures. Western music notation basically breaks down at the levels of eighth note triplets and 16th notes, at least in terms of polyrhythmic accent patterns, and being able to simply relate to them concretely in notation, or in reference to the beat feel-wise.
To me, the difference in western music notation and counting, compared to Indian organization, is similar to the difference between the old English fractional monetary and measurement systems versus base-10 or metric measurements.
In previous generations, children had to spend countless hours memorizing tables for equivalencies in different monetary denominations or for how many ounces were in a pint etc. Whereas, with the metric system, you know the answers without memorizing, if you understand the basic maths which form the structure for counting. The system itself is the solution to the memorization "problem".Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-03-2016 at 12:07 PM.
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I have to say that what he declares in his brief analysis of the Charlston rhythm is absolutely true. We are taught to count it as one and two and three and four and and to treat the second attack as an upbeat. But when you break it down in terms of the additive rhythm principle, where the smallest note value is eighth notes, The two attacks are simply transformed into counting 3 plus 5. (123 12345)
That forces you to play the second attack on the downbeat, so to speak ( on the 1 of 12345) . If you play long enough this way you get a completely different feel, a true Jazz feel as opposed to playing at stiffly, with the one and two and three and four and stuff .
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One last thing before I get out of here: I always knew that Jazz was fundamentally understood in terms of a baseline 12/8 music. But it's never been more clear to me that now. Before it was an abstraction. You can't make sense of the triplets and the three against two feel without this basic understanding. Therefore, you can't make sense of quarter note triplets without understanding eighth note triplets.
Consequently and ultimately, the dotted quarter note is your best friend .
Almost every recording you will hear the bass player just playing quarter notes in four four style. And you will always inevitably hear the drummer playing at 6/8 pattern on the ride cymbal. That's your basic three against two right there.
OK have a nice day
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Yes. I do not think it's necessary to read his books to get into DVD II or III for that matter. I've read some of them, including the two you have. All have different information. Originally Posted by NSJ
I'm rather selfishly looking forward to talking to someone else about their experiences with DVD II.
I think Mike is one of the few educators trying to tackle this head on.I think his ideas relate to Hindustani and Carnatic music only indirectly in so far as they borrow from the concept of additive rhythm.
The system of talas make western art music rhythm ideas sound like kindergarten
I've just come to the realization that if I don't get this aspect right, the time, feel, syncopation, polyrhythms, my playing will never improve .
Basically, when you think of very sophisticated concepts of rhythm, you think of Africa, north India, South India, and Indonesia .
La Habana, New Orleans, São Paulo-- they are all understood by way of Africa .
I think the concept of radically altering the way we count rhythms, which Mike does, is kind of important. Of course it's math, there's going to be some elements of organization and counting of course .
But it's as you said: it's all about re-orientating oneself to put the work in, experientially speaking, on things that are important .
In a lot of jazz rhythm material I see, rhythm is discussed from a mathematical perspective and the context of the rhythm is not really touched upon. See for example the Kreisberg video - while very good and very thorough it's very much you can put this rhythm on this rhythm and so on, but never really any context or history or tradition. I find this true of the Ari Hoenig stuff too, and actually quite true of the M-Base material I have seen.
I find that a bit dry. Music isn't maths alone, and rhythm has a cultural history.
The book about building lines is like the mirror image of Barry Harris.I'm pretty much going to devote all my thinking and work on how to play this music, for the next several months straight, on this stuff and also on Barry Harris. Basically it's time to hit the woodshed big time. Before I was working a lot last two months, I put in 3 to 5 hours a day on music. Time to do that again but with real laser sharp focus .
The second book, which is on how to create melodies from rhythms, strikes me as Dizzy Gillespie 101. From what I understand, James Moody told him to write it after he explained it to James and Mr. Moody himself became a convert. Keep in mind, he and James were playing at Dizzys band for years as equals. It just goes to show you that you're never too old to learn something new or think about something in a new way . The best ones are always learning and always growing.
One thing about my studying Barry's stuff is that it has (and I think this is largely down to me) equipped me with the ability to spin long lines of eighth notes convincingly over changes, but because of the chord tone/downbeat thing it can be rather uninteresting rhythmically especially on uptempo tunes. I understand this more as a stepping stone to the next level, and the more I work on Barry the better that will get.
Longo's approach to playing changes is more conducive to thinking 'rhythm first notes second.' I understand how both approaches could work together as the aim is the same, just different routes up the mountain.Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2016 at 10:14 AM.
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my sense of M-base rhythmic ideas:In a lot of jazz rhythm material I see, rhythm is discussed from a mathematical perspective and the context of the rhythm is not really touched upon..................and actually quite true of the M-Base material I have seen.
Steve seems to prefer to think in small rhythmic cells, cycles and overlapping cycles, clave figures, etc.
It is pretty rare for him to use mathematics to describe things.
Generally his personal and teaching approach is tactile, experiential (listen,execute and gain comfort over time).
Time signatures and measures are afterthoughts acknowledged when enough people he is
teaching cry out for help, to break it down into the more familiar mathematics of a notation mindset.
He can improvise within the contexts he presents and most often can site existing musical examples.
How do you view this material/approach as mathematical?
Thanks.
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I took a couple lessons with Mike when I first moved to NY. The material he goes over in the DVDs is exactly what he teaches in his lessons. The very first exercise in DVD 2 was lesson #1.
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That is maths. Cycles, cells, phasing, overlaps and so on. Relationships. Originally Posted by bako
I like the m-base material in general. I think Steve Coleman is one of the great thinkers of the music, and his article on Bird is epic. I don't really want to start a discussion about this area because I don't feel I know enough.Generally his personal and teaching approach is tactile, experiential (listen,execute and gain comfort over time).
Time signatures and measures are afterthoughts acknowledged when enough people he is
teaching cry out for help, to break it down into the more familiar mathematics of a notation mindset.
He can improvise within the contexts he presents and most often can site existing musical examples.
I have practiced some of the polyrhythmic stuff from the M-Base Ways site. It's good fun and pretty hard, but I never got the sense of swing or connection to something that I did practicing Longo's materials. It's not quite what I'm looking for.
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I've been at a few live Steve workshops and while anything could be analyzed mathematically,
his presentation style is the least analytical that I've ever dealt with.
Clap this pattern (purely aural, no time signature given)
Sing this counter line (often a different length cycle, no clues given where it enters)
Sing this 2nd counter melody or play solos to a standard against it.
Re; Mike Longo
What is the best low priced entry point to get a feel for Mike's approach?
I know he puts some emphasis on playing djembe which is cool.
I suspect we'd all be the better for it spending more time drumming, dancing and singing.
I can't do that to my Brooklyn neighbors given the number of hours I already practice 2 instruments
as well as holding a few rehearsal a week at my place. I did recently purchase a nice set of brushes
in an effort to accomplish a similar effect.
Navdeep,
3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 2
I'm much more at home working with units of 2 and 3.
One beat can go by so quickly.
Why not 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 ?
Thanks
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The one is necessary because it's all calculated on the number of beats associated with each hit including rests ( I.e., until the next hit ) , as measured by the smallest applicable note, which in this case is 16th notes. The one in this case means there is a hit lasting 1/16 note and immediately there is another hit immediately without any rest. Originally Posted by bako
It may sound a bit convoluted, but it all makes sense and is much more easy to figure out the actual notation, which does not account for syncopation and where the hits actually happen . It tells you how to play it and how it will sound in practice .
His sight reading rhythms book is like 12-14 bucks, as a standalone. It's 59 pages of text and explanations followed by 35 exercises . Total number of pages equals 94 .
You can buy both DVDs with the book for like 60 bucks, all-inclusive . The second DVD is the one you want, because it breaks it all down apparently instruction wise with the drummer
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Yeah I guess. My main exposure to Coleman has been through his essays, which are dense and full of math, terminology and references to Basketball and the Vedic scriptures. New ways of organising pitch and rhythm. His obsession with symmetry is very mathematical. Originally Posted by bako
I suppose the thing is I don't get much feel from the M-Base exercises. They are cool things and I like the ethos of them (independence of rhythm without practicing how they line up) but the rhythms themselves leave me a bit cold. They seem like exercises, lacking in grease or vibe.
What I like about Mike's stuff is it's all about feel, grease. The proof of the pudding is his feel which is how I want my playing to feel, just playing 4/4 jazz stuff. The M-Base thing is a different type of rhythmic aesthetic, very characteristic, very clattery, skeletal and clean.
I think it's worth emphasising the difference between feel and rhythm. Obviously connected, and yet different things. Why?
- It is possible to have great feel and yet speed up, slow down, add beats.
- It is also possible to have exact metronomic time but no feel to speak of.
It is also possible to go into complex additive rhythms and yet have a very mono-rhythmic way of playing them (Balkan music is an example). By the as much as I understand it, the richness of implied polyrhythm is what gives jazz its feel and this must become intuitive.
Learning feel is actually, to me what Mike Longo's DVD's are about, adding that grease to your playing. He's trying to replace what you would have got on the bandstand a few decades back.
The 'how' rather than the 'what'Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2016 at 05:25 AM.
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I hesitate to bring up some technical stuff because people might think it's full of 50 Cent words or something but his stuff on finding rhythms that fit triads via Passing tones, neighbor tones, escape tones, appoggiaturas, changing tones, suspensions, anticipations, and pedal points is VERY VERY good.
Aw screw it, I don't care if there is a lot of inflation with regard to the cost of these words, every musician should know them. I agree that there is excessive intellectualism about the music many times--- that does not mean that we should succumb to a a "no nothing, aw shucks anti-intellectualism ".
The point is, so much can be created with rhythm just from a few sources . Some musical concepts even imply a certain rhythm: for example, the use of neighbor tones naturally call out for triplets .
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Dude. Let her rip.... within reason. Let's try not to exceed 95 cents. :-)
I think Melody is a great entry point to poly's, both as a path to learning to hear/feel them as well as practical application OF them. Very ready to here in the context of melodic patterns.
This following is drummed into my head every Thursday, like water torture, from a piano student who doesn't "know" polyrhythms from a hole in the ground. Apologies in advance :
There's also much to be done with string sets and pick direction/right hand fingers.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-04-2016 at 12:36 PM.
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I already have the first volume. But hesitate to buy the second one. even the third dvd has just come out. Which one will teach you the real lesson? All the introduction was good but i need to get straight to the bizniz.
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The second and third ones haves the exercises in Originally Posted by EJGuitar
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The second and third ones have the exercises in Originally Posted by EJGuitar
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Second one first. And get a djembe if you can.
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so it weights more on the second one. whereas the third one is only suplementary? Originally Posted by christianm77
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The third one is advanced. I think I started work on that a few months after DVD II. TBH still not sure if I 'get it.' But if you don't get anything out of DVD II, don't bother with III. Originally Posted by EJGuitar
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Is it possible to buy dvd 2 in digital form?
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