Mike Longo - Dizzy Gillespie Rhythm

[matt.guitarteacher]

(5) the key Rhythm, translated to 4/4, is dotted quarter, 8th note, quarter note, quarter note, 8th note, and dotted quarter. both left-hand and right-hand play on the 1, or first dotted quarter; The left-hand plays on the next 8th note, the right-hand plays the quarter note , The left-hand plays the next quarter note, the right-hand plays the next eighth note, and finally the left-hand plays the final dotted quarter note .

By "key rhythm", do you mean something other than the resultant rhythm of tapping 3 and 4 simultaneously?

[NSJ]

By "key rhythm", do you mean something other than the resultant rhythm of tapping 3 and 4 simultaneously?

The key rhythm is derived from the resultant rhythm and help to figure out three v 4.

The resultant rhythm compiles the aggregate number of hits -----1,4,5,7, 9, and 10.
The question becomes, given that eighth notes are the lowest possible note value, how many eighth notes including the actual hit, do you have before you get to the next hit ?

The 1 ---Played by both left and right hands
Between 1and 4:3 eighth notes =dotted quarter : played by the left-hand only
Between four and 5: one 8th note - eight note : Played by the right hand only
Between five and seven: 2 eight notes= quarter note ---played by the left hand only
Between seven and nine: 2 eighth notes = quarter note ---played by the right-hand only
Between nine and 10: one eight note - eight note ---- played by the left hand only
Between 10 and 12: 3 eighth notes - dotted quarter ---- Sequence to repeat on the one

[matt.guitarteacher]

The key rhythm is derived from the resultant rhythm and help to figure out three v 4.

Okay. I think I understand what you're talking about now, but the way you originally stated it is maybe more confusing than it could be. You're describing 12/8:

(5)the key Rhythm, translated to 4/4, is dotted quarter, 8th note, quarter note, quarter note, 8th note, and dotted quarter. Both left-hand and right-hand play on the 1, or first dotted quarter;

It's all 4 anyway, but when you talk about dotted quarters in 4/4, that's something very specific related to eighth notes. Technically speaking, you can't have twelve 8th notes in 4/4. I would go with describing it as either 12/8 or in terms of triplets in 4/4. Triplets in for four , communicated via text, is pretty tedious.

Your original quote would probably be best stated as : "the key Rhythm, translated to 12/8..."

It's somewhat semantics, but a confusing conversation to start anyway. :-)

[christianm77]

I like the Takadimi breakdown that Matt did best

[NSJ]

I like the Takadimi breakdown that Matt did best

I've been using that for a while, I think it really has helped me navigate the "big pile" of rhythms ( The universal rhythm idea ) that are unitary in a linear way , and also to displace them on the fly.

However, when you want to play five against four Or four against three or three against two with each being represented by a separate line, there is no substitute for learning to tap them out on the lap and to feel both against each other at the same time .

Basically, one needs to do both things.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I've been using that for a while, I think it really has helped me navigate the "big pile" of rhythms ( The universal rhythm idea ) that are unitary in a linear way , and also to displace them on the fly.

However, when you want to play five against four Or four against three or three against two with each being represented by a separate line, there is no substitute for learning to tap them out on the lap and to feel both against each other at the same time .

Basically, one needs to do both things.

Yeah. I think it's whatever works. Probably different for different people. Again, I think tapping both simultaneously is slightly higher level of mastery, as opposed to a prerequisite for beginning. It's a great reference point in the beginning as well though, with the rhythm itself being its own reference to learning to hear it.

For example, tapping 3 against 2 is pretty quickly done by anybody, by simply getting them to imitate what you're doing. Probably much easier to execute, as a two-handed composite "rhythm", than it is to initially hear and think of as two separate entities, But then you have that jumping off point for understanding broader understanding/hearing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Interestingly, I looked back in my book yesterday, and found that the author addresses triplets specifically. Where I assumed two as the base for counting quarter note triplets, he's using four.

He has quarter note triplets notated as "TA DI", implying a subtractive rhythm from "TA (KA) DI (MI)", or 4 on 8th note triplets, as the base. Makes a lot more sense that way and makes counting all subdivisions easier as well. Of course, you could further subtract the DI's for half triplets.

[christianm77]

Sure, the more ways you have of breaking a thing down the more accurate you are...

But, if you can focus on just one rhythm out of the two while playing the pattern you are in a very good position to judge how even it is...

[NSJ]

Let's be clear as to the fundamental processes involved that have to be coordinated together to establish the correct feel and syncopation. These are the ones that I can think of, anyone else is feel free to add or subtract .

(1) verbalizing the rhythms via whatever solfege you can imagine that works for you. As Mike says, it's important not to think of them as notes but rather as sounds.

(2) getting the left and right hand coordination correct for tapping it out on your lap, first at slower temples, eventually and playing tempos.

(3) Tapping the foot accordingly, either on every downbeat (e.g., quarter notes ) or, even better, on the one and three or two and four ( Half notes )

(4) understanding the key rhythm associated with various compound meters , i.e., in triple meter, not in simple duple meter .

(5) really understanding the difference between eighth note triplets, quarter note triplets and half note triplets.

(6) really using the concept of universal rhythm in interchangeable way vis-a-vis the collective rhythmic pile (4/4, 3/4, 6/8, 12/8, 5/4, 7/4, 2/4, etc)

(7) really understanding the difference between "playing and five" and "playing five against four ", etc.

(8) being able to control accents anywhere along the line, particularly asymmetrical accents over the bar .

(9). Being able to displace rhythms anywhere along the beat .

[christianm77]

I think you just have to do it tho

[NSJ]

I think you just have to do it tho

Well yeah, doesn't that go without saying ?

Every day, I pick one song and spend as much time as I can only working on that one song, using everything that I know and everything I want to practice, rhythmically harmonically and melodically. Today it's embraceable you .

[christianm77]

How have you found the Longo improvisation exercises?

[NSJ]

How have you found the Longo improvisation exercises?

Yes. Basically I do the ones for the guitar. And practice a crap load on the drum doing the 123456-123-1234-12345 etc It really takes a long time to get that down where the intuitive feel overtakes the intellectual .

[rintincop]

.... I had a brief conversation with Jonathan Kreisberg about practicing three against four and two against three. I have not seen any of his videos, but he fundamentally disagreed in terms of this, because he said he will feel it in three not in four. He said it is very important to feel quarter note triplets in four .

KEY POINT : That is African approach not the Indian approach.
This should be easy if you have a full command of triplet eighth note subdivisions.

I know all this stuff like the back of my hand, it's basics to me.
Longo is a smart guy but he can confuse some folks into thinking that counting in eighth note groupings is ideal as the the Indian/Asian cultures tend to. They will counting patterns like 123 123 12 12 123 123 is for a 13/8 . It is more trance like and linear in concept.
But Africans prefer superimposing over a 4/4 pulse, because it is more suspenseful, more dance-like, and thus more applicable to jazz which has always usually been a 4/4 music. Remember Africa is where jazz gets its rhythm from not from Asia. Peg your rhythm concepts on the triplet division of 4 quarter notes to retain an exciting dance like African quality.

13/8 not so great for dance.

[rintincop]

Don't confuse time signatures whith poly-rhythm schemes:


2 against 3 is technically not the same as saying "2/3"
3 against 4 not the same as saying "3/4" to a musician
Continuous dotted quarter notes against 4/4 is not the same as any meter signature

etc...

[christianm77]

13/8 not so great for dance.

Unless you are in the Balkans maybe?

13/8

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 1 2

Long Long Long Short Short

People dance to this type of stuff without thinking. It's just natural.

But Balkan rhythm is completely different concept to African rhythm