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Whenever i attempt to improvise , i hate my playing, and i can't prevent myself from hating every single synthetic note i play , i simply can't enjoy myself especialy on standards with lots of changes , i think way too much.
Each time i notice how many holes i have in my fretboard knowledge, often i'm like damn where is Abmin7 , can't find it here , i'll go to the spot i'm comfortable with , i'll use this A shape , and the voice leading is completly lost!
Now i started to fear improvising and decided not to improvise on a standard until i reach a milestone in my fretboard knowledge, being able to play II V cycled or modulated to another key in one position, with a variety of voice leading starting from 3rds , roots , 7ths , 5ths , then move to the next positon (i like sheryls aproach in bebop dojo essentials she played autumn leaves in one position)
So yeah i think i'm missing out on the fundamental of improvisation which is working on my II V's in all position (one position at a time ) with different voice leading !
i'm currently working on randy vincent celullar aproach and van eps harmonic mechanisms (hopefuly this will unlock the fretboard for me) !
I wish i had a teacher that will supervise my progress and tell me where i suck exactly , but no good teachers in my country sadly !
I've seen people in this forum telling that progress without a teacher will be full of ups and downs (mostly downs) !
So any advice on how i should proceeed , routine suggestion or just psychologic support might help (i'm currently very frustrated )
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09-08-2016 10:24 AM
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Time to go back to the melody.
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Everyone goes through this mooncef. Or I know I did. Where are you located? You can't find anyone you can play with?
Tell me 6 tunes you really love, that you'd give anything to be able to play. Might we start with that?
Now I know I'm asking a lot, but put all this thought of II V out of your head. Can you find the tune that's your favourite from the list and play it? Really play it. Without a page in front of you. In time. With feeling. Like you were singing it. So you know what's coming up and you know where it's going. And can you do this easily on different locations of the fingerboard?
You can? Great, because that's called a really great foundation, where you can hear the II V's within a piece and really understand why and how you'd want to augment that knowledge and beauty.
Have you heard of Lee Konitz's steps to improvisation?
Lee is (was) an alto player. So don't worry, even though he's not a guitarist, this is good knowledge:
In very brief, the 10 gradients are incrementally moving from simple (the tune’s melody) to complicated (improvising from pure inspiration) all the while keeping the original melody as point of departure and reference for building new material. The steps rely less and less on the original melody as we progress, of course.
All examples take place on the first 8 bars of All The Things You Are, a great jazz standard.
What to Do with That ???
Ok, you’ve read (or played) through the examples and… it doesn’t really make any sense, yet? Same thing happened to me, so don’t worry! Each of Konitz 10 gradients should be worked on individually for a while. Here’s a concise yet detailed explanation of each step:
– 1st Gradient –
The tune’s melody, as is. This one’s a “no brainer” really.
– 2nd Gradient –
Slight variation on the original: identify “target notes”, the most important tones of the melody. Connect them together, when you can or wish, with simple musical devices, with passing tones for example. In this step, the focus is on the important tones. Remember that these can be shortened in duration to allow passing tones to happen.
– 3rd Gradient –
More notes added to the line. Using new devices such as neighbor tones (mostly diatonic), change of direction and skips. The “target notes” are still present on strong beats but there’s more flourishes around them. Similar to second gradient, but with more ornaments.
– 4th Gradient –
While it may be hard to tell the difference between Step 2 and 3 (“What should I play now…?”), Step 4 is really straight forward: Imagine a stream of 8th-notes (and occasional triplets) that simply uses the melody notes as guide-tones. That’s the “big picture” of step 4. Every improvised lines on guide tones before? Check this out.
– 5th Gradient –
Same as Step 4 (the line is a stream of 8ths and triplets with the melody note dictating the direction) but we’re adding two new important devices:
- Neighbor tones (now more chromatic) and arpeggiation of underlying chords.
- Rhythmic displacement of “target notes” (they don’t always fall on downbeats anymore.)
That’s where the line really starts to develop into “its own thing”. Very cool!
– 6th Gradient –
According less importance to the melody again: target notes still appear in their respective bars but may become subsidiary to the other ones (rhythmically, melodically and in phrasing/emphasis). In other words: the ornaments can “take over” and get more attention now. The improvised line should also be built from higher and higher chord tones (extensions such as 9ths, 11ths and 13ths).
– 7th Gradient –
Same as sixth gradient but Lee Konitz is using even more “higher” extension and altered chord tones such as b9, #9 and others. This one is a bit more “out” and chromatic than step 6. It depends on the tune, the player and where the line wants to go.
– 8th Gradient –
Original melody or intervals may still be present but they’re totally ingrained in the improvised melody (barely noticeable, or not very obvious). This is probably where most “classic solos” stand: a great improvised line that stems from the original melody but that is never too obviously quoted from the original. Listen to Jim Hall, he’s a master at using the melody subtly like this.
– 9th Gradient –
Almost no reference to the original target tones anymore (but the improvised line is still very anchored in the harmony of the tune and has grown from the original melody.) Lee Konitz may well be the only one to fully grasp this “gradient” of improv. I must admit, I don’t really get it … yet! To me, this is mind over matter…
– 10th Gradient –
An act of pure inspiration.
This approach is melody oriented, and I find that a very strong point of departure. And that begins with you loving melody enough to use your guitar as an instrument of melody. If you don't think of it that way, then don't use this post as advice, it's probably wrong for you. Try this if you want. Or you can stick to transcriptions and running II V licks too. Lots of people have advice. This was really important to me.
David
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Spend some time shedding to make one note swing/groove, then add one more note. Do this against a metronome or drum machine. Play quarters and/or eighths. Forget changes, tunes, lines, etc for now. Just get used to the idea that rhythm drives everything.
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Actually, the fundamental of improvisation is use your ears. It doesn't matter if I have 12 notes or 1, or a crap ton of theory or none, I will find a way to make it sound good. This is something that I am grateful I learned in my first year of improvisation study, which involved:
Originally Posted by mooncef
1. Figuring out where all the pentatonic scale notes were on the fretboard, by ear. I never had a diagram given to me, I figured out where all the notes in the pentatonic scale were, by ear, and drew my own diagrams.
2. I practiced the shit out of that scale, mainly focusing on making good sounding lines (using my ears, not theory), and stealing a lot of ideas from Jimi Hendrix and other blues & rock guitarists.
By the end of year 1, I could actually make melodic sounding licks using the pentatonic scale, up and down the neck, in at least one key, with a good amount of fluidity. I had learned how to use my ears to guide my fingers, and more or less make lines based on what I heard on a recording or heard in my mind. That was the most important lesson I ever learned in improvisation. I still try to use that method today, even if I am using several more scales and arpeggios then I was before. If you make playing music into a mathematical exercise, it will sound as inspired as math. I'm not saying don't try to utilize theory, I am a very heavy theory nerd and have always made use of it. But you need to prioritize the sound of your lines over the theory of your lines. You know the difference between a good sounding line and a boring line or exercise sounding line, otherwise you wouldn't be so disappointed with your playing. So slow down, stop over analyzing what you are going to do next, and just try to make good melodic ideas. It is really that simple. One of the golden rules of improvisation is that the more you think while you are improvising, the worse it generally sounds. That is not to say thinking is not allowed, just that you want to do the minimal possible, preferably none. The better things are internalized the less thinking required. So improvise mainly with the ideas you have internalized and require no thinking. If you must, add just 1 idea into the mix where you might have to think a tiny bit. No more than that.
*edit*
And no offense to Truthhertz, his method is great for an advanced player, but I think it is exactly what you should avoid doing right now. He is suggesting you solve your problem by doing exactly what is causing your problem!Last edited by Guitarzen; 09-08-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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No offense, Originally Posted by Guitarzen
I did offer that as advice to the beginner. But a beginner who could play a melody. I believe struggling and then succeeding in making the guitar a melodic instrument is an alternative to learning how to negotiate (and get lost in) exercises of II V's at this point.
A good example of two people coming from two places. Now I'm not suggesting that the 10 steps are something you do ALL AT ONCE, but taking a melody and spending a few months on step 1, is going to give you a lot. It's not too advanced, or so I believe. Maybe it's because I see so many players who can do a lot but can't relate it to a melody, or never bother with learning to love a tune for its melody, that I come at it this way.
Different approaches. I never considered it too advanced to learn a melody and then learn how to embellish it. Granted, it takes some doing, but in the end, it's giving you something to work with.
But do feel free to not use that approach, just be aware that it's an option. One step at a time.
David
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You nailed it yourself. Just stop it and let go. It's like that old Henny Youngman joke: "Guy goes to a doctor. Says 'it hurts when I go like this'. Doctor says 'so don't go like this'" Originally Posted by mooncef
Don't sweat it, though. A lot of smart people overthink.
PS: If you would consider Skype lessons, inbox me. Maybe I can help...
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OP, try this out -
Pick your most well learned tune, make sure you can improvise without minding too much about the changes. (important note - if you have to force yourself to remember the chords - you are so screwed. They have to "pop up" in your mind, no time to fish there) So, pick one that you don't have to worry about too much.
Now. Check what key your tune is in, then retune your bass string - either 5th or 6th to the 1st - to the key note of your tune. It's really optional, just to get the procedure closer to your song. Can be any key really.
Relax. Sit back. Sigh. Count to ten. Relax.
Choose your key pattern, the one you like to use the most there.
Pull your bass string - it should be the 1st note of that key. Let it ring. Listen.
Now relax some more.
Pull one single note on your pattern. Listen how the bass and "solo" note harmonize together. Listen how it sounds, where it wants to go, etc. For 10 seconds at least. If the notes die out, just pull them again. Do that with ALL notes on your pattern. All meanining every single note. All 12. Just be mindful that its actually your ionian or aeolian or whatever you've picked. It should take about 5 minutes to get your 2 octave notes all felt that way.
But yeah, get calm like Buddha and 100% focused for that or it really won't work
Now, try improvising on your tune.
Pls, try that and chime in to tell what happened. I'm very curious- that worked for me but don't really know about other people. It's not something you have or can do endlessly but eh. often it can make a big difference.
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Why don't you live with that for the time being and keep doing what you're doing? You can always add some min7 shapes and you may find that you get happier with your note choices as time passes. I don't like my soloing either, but Cherokee sounds like Cherokee when I improvise. It didn't before even though I was mainly using chord tones. Originally Posted by mooncef
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Frankly, I second the Lee Konitz advice as suggested by David. I think it is about as succinct and accurate a statement as I've ever read about the 'stages' we all traverse ...again and again. That is the Zen of it. You get half the distance to the target each time...
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I did that with Stella. Only chord tones. Although it was all correct, it just wasn't pleasing to play like that at all. Even when using chord tones, mostly as arpeggios, the notes became all even with each other and numb. That's why I proposed the exercise up there. That waked them up and made them shine again. There is that idea of notes really don't matter as much as rhythm but whenever someone says that, I feel a little bit um.. disgusted even (no offence to anyone - that statement is quite often true in jazz). Because I switched from classical I guess. Originally Posted by Binyomin
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Please take a look at Tim Miller's On Line Guitar lessons. When I lived in Boston I studied with Tim and he has since launched an amazing site (to anyone who reads this, check it out). With his guidance, it's all down to you and the hours you are willing to commit to the music. Good luck!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Lots of teachers use Skype these days. Have a look around for one whose playing you like.
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Thank you guys for the valuable information.
I'm kinda tempted by skype lesson or an online course .
What do you think is the most effective ,i've read a lot about that in this forum .
Skype lessons according to multiple experiences ,might be a waste of time ,since the teacher will spot right away flaws and the remaining 45 mins will be all spent on him/her giving me advice ,whereas on an online school there is more material and the possibility to have the teacher review my playing .
If you can give your feedback on how much skype lessons/inline school helped you ,would be great!
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I've yet to take any Skype lessons, but to my mind, this would seem to be exactly the POINT of the thing. I think most of us self-instructed learners have one major problem above all else: we don't know exactly what it is that is the MOST important thing to be working on. Originally Posted by mooncef
For the price of a month or two worth of online "course", you could have a one-off lesson with a different teacher every month or two, until you find the "right one" . Eventually, you may not need more than one lesson per month. One lesson with one good instructor will probably last you for a few weeks , having a lot of material to work with. If it was me, I'd probably look at taking a few of them for test drive and find out you click with.
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Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of Mike Stern demonstrating an all chord tone solo, and it sounds pretty good. Search for it. Originally Posted by emanresu
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A couple of years ago I was at a point where the Lee Konitz advice was beyond me. Just now though, I played the first two bars of Georgia on My Mind through the looper at a brisk tempo:
| F | E-7b5 A7 alt |
The first bar of the melody is A to C, so the third of F to the fifth. Think of the second bar however you will: root to b7 of A7alt, or fourth to b3 of E-7b5...whatever. You can have a lot of fun and make some pretty decent sounding noise just messing with the rhythms of those 4 simple notes and applying whatever embellishments sound good to you. Thanks for reintroducing me to this concept, David.
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Originally Posted by mooncef
I have just finished a free website for this very reason. I even went to jazz college and was never given anything systematic. Just told to learn all the scales and use them on the right chord at the right time. I developed jazz hack for my self first, but I think that it can help anyone looking how to learn improv.
Jazz Hack | Learn to solo in weeks not years
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Another way to go at this is to learn some solos by great players. Herb Ellis put out a series of books on playing over blues ("Swing Blues"), rhythm changes ("Rhythm Shapes") and standards ("All the Shapes You Are"). Lots of great lines in those books and a straightforward "system" of playing out of simple chord shapes. Lot of great material in those books. Learn some of those lines and you'll have something to play. It's important to get a feel of what it's like to know your way around some changes and not be anxious. (It is easy to mistake anxiety for authenticity.)
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(it is easy to mistake anxiety for authenticity.)
+1
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But here are some straightforward, though perhaps unorthodox, ideas to get you started. Hope it helps.
I primarily like to conceptualize improvisation not in terms of scales or keys, but from the simple fact that there are only twelve notes in western music. No matter what I'm playing, I practice musical bits using every note. What happens with practice is that one's brain learns to pre-hear all twelve notes. We all like certain notes or note combinations more than others, and that is how one starts defining one's self as a player. Charlie Parker and Mozart are recognizable from each other because they liked different notes, and put those notes together differently from one another.
My method of improving improvisational skills: I have a list of musical ideas. I start each practice session by playing a tune (with a background track) and NOT looking at the list. This allows me to gauge what ideas are 'locked in', that is, are being recalled spontaneously, and thus in a performance situation would just 'appear'. Then I take a new idea from the list and keep working with it while playing the tune until it appears in the next day's first go-round.
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Nice idea. I like! Originally Posted by paulcw16
I would say that the more I listen to Mozart the more I hear Charlie Parker and vice versa. There's a lot of that furniture in Parker's music.... it's not the only thing- Parker plays blues licks too, and cheeky upper extension and even whole tone lines that come from his background in the Swing era, but much of his changes running would be familiar to the musicians of the 18th century.
For example what would have been called a Fonte in Mozart's time is almost the exact note choices Bird would use on a I-VI-II-V. This could be coincidence or it could be direct influence. In a way it doesn't matter. Bird would have heard these combinations in use, and of the 12 notes over the common progressions of harmony there are some combinations that work better than others.
I think it's a bad idea in general to get fixated too much on note choice. Note choices can be pretty stereotyped actually, even in great music. It's the other factors that make it great (see both Mozart and Bird for this.)
There's not really that many good sounding combinations TBH.
Mozart was working from a finite set of basic frameworks that could be embellished in much the same way as a jazz musician does. I think the idea of freely choosing one of 12 notes at any time, or hearing one note at a time is a bit of a chimera in music. After all, we don't choose our sentences one letter at a time - we think in sentences and ideas. Doing a lot of transcriptions reveals this clearly.
The important thing (which mooncef put so well in his transcription thread) is the rhythm and shape of the phrase. That's what really makes jazz jazz. It is not important to use distinct note choices to create interesting music any more than it is necessary to invent a new alphabet or new words to write a poem or a novel.
(I mean you can - but you don't have to.)
I go into some detail in my video. Be warned, it's pretty long.
Last edited by christianm77; 09-22-2016 at 06:35 AM.
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Don't get Mozart into it. guys... please... it's just driving me crazy
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That's why I do it. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Ligon references hundreds of examples from transcriptions etc., and always juxtaposes against classical. :-) Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-22-2016 at 08:27 AM.
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