Target Notes vs Playing the Changes

**Groyniad** · 09-03-2016, 06:41 AM

this is huge folks

i've spent a lot of time chasing changes - a lot of time even just on rhythm changes (which are some seriously full on changes to chase - don't be fooled by their simplicity)

i'm starting to learn how to avoid that bad vibe now

and i think its because i've intuitively started to use targeting rather than change-making as my main thing

take any tune - get others to play it for you or use a backing track

play an intro phrase anticipating the beginning and running into it - and just think say 5-1 (so the very last change before the beginning)

the point is that you can make your 5 - 1 phrase pretty much as long as you like no matter what the actual changes are that lead you back to the start

if the last bit is a 3/6/2/5 thing for example you can play your 5-1 phrase right through it - ignoring the more involved changes

it won't sound the same as if your pick-up phrase hit all those changes - but it will certainly work

this should start to help you to appreciate just how many liberties you can take with the changes.

in an 8 bar section for example - you could do a pick up phrase into it that spilled over into the 8 bars. another phrase heard as an approach to a chord tone in bar 4 - and then another pick-up phrase into a chord tone at the beginning of the next 8 bar section

your target tones will probably be the more interesting or pivotal chord tones - 7s/3s/ flat 5s

i've heard people talking about targets etc. - mr b. started a thread on them a while back - (and see my 'chords vs functions') but i've never heard it explained clearly i don't think

hope this helps

**matt.guitarteacher** · 09-03-2016, 07:24 AM

Bert Ligon has a lot of material on this sort of thing. Harmonic generalization (as opposed to harmonic specificity) often has to do with targeting chord tones of the tonic triad, regardless of chord of the moment. He includes examples of playing this way over blues and rhythm changes etc and notates hundreds of directly transcribed examples from solos, as well as examples from classical music.

I hear this as being a big part of of much of Wes's playing.

**gggomez** · 09-03-2016, 08:12 AM

I think I saw an interview with Julian Lage talking and demonstrating on this

**whiskey02** · 09-06-2016, 02:58 PM

If you're hitting the right target notes, you are making or playing the changes. Just a different thought process to get there. Doesn't matter a bit to the listener HOW you sound good.

**Groyniad** · 09-06-2016, 04:23 PM

that's right w02 - it can feel distinctive too

you can more easily feel/hear a whole 3625 thing as one phrase - because all you're really thinking about is arriving somewhere on 1

**marcwhy** · 09-06-2016, 10:44 PM

Don't forget, there's a third option: aiming for a target; making the changes; and playing through the changes!
Check out Mark Turner, George Garzone, Chris Crocco, et al. These cats can do all three, whenever they want.

**christianm77** · 09-07-2016, 09:07 AM

Here's another option - base everything you do on the melody. Peter Bernstein talks about this.

It's amazing how much of the changes are in the melody of the song. If you embellish the melody you can end up playing the changes without thinking about them at all.

**princeplanet** · 09-07-2016, 09:17 AM

Or better still, just think of making your own melodies!

Easier said than done, but I really hope I can get to the point one day where this is my main concern, knowing that years and years of practicing and listening have prepared me to just "chase the flame" with the confidence to just force my melodies over whatever is going on.

As much as I love and admire the "change running machines" like Coleman Hawkins or Sonny Stitt, I hold special reverence for the melody machines like Rollins, Cannon, Dexter, Wes or even Miles...

**bako** · 09-07-2016, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Here's another option - base everything you do on the melody. Peter Bernstein talks about this. It's amazing how much of the changes are in the melody of the song. If you embellish the melody you can end up playing the changes without thinking about them at all.

One idea he presented to me by a student of Lee Konitz was to create a skeletal version of a melody.
This skeleton melody would then be given an upper and lower harmony.
This trinity of source material is then available as a reference for creating new melodies
as well as harmonies that are inherently connected to the song.

**Reg** · 09-08-2016, 10:23 AM

Interesting... I've been pushing Targets for as long as I've been on this forum, started back in the 60's. The last 5 or 10 years I've generally used the term Tonal targets. Usually because most guitarist tend to not understand different harmonic movement which can and usually does reflect Tonal references... Tonal Targets.

The concept of using targets is generally related to "Form". The spatial organization of time in music.

That organization of time, or "Form" using Tonal Targets or any form of Targets, not just Tonal Targets, is generally the natural progression of developing one's musicianship.... getting your skills together, generally your technical skills.

Which generally leads to one being able to perform different concepts, approaches and styles of music.... develop your musical voice.

**Groyniad** · 09-08-2016, 11:32 AM

it really means that you can decide how to organize the changes leading up to a given point - both in terms of which changes you imply in your line and when you make them happen. even if you've only got a half bar of a dominant going into a minor or major chord - in bar 4 or 6 or 13 or whenever - you could make it an altered dom. (obviously) and you could also make it last a bar and a half. you muscle your way through the actual changes - and you can do this effectively because the change(s) you play work as a way to get into an important chord or melody note at the right time.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-08-2016, 01:16 PM

Playing to targets can still address the melody and changes.

In fact, it can help you play more melodically over a tune with busy changes, because you're not "change chasing."

**targuit** · 09-08-2016, 01:59 PM

Yes, Jeff, but are you talking about playing a single or double stop lead in a trio with piano or a solo guitar rendition? Or both? And why?

I mean those are two different situations. When playing solo, you have to provide some harmony. If you are playing a solo over a piano and bass, it is a different story.

**christianm77** · 09-08-2016, 02:06 PM

The targets might well be in the melody already

**mr. beaumont** · 09-08-2016, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Yes, Jeff, but are you talking about playing a single or double stop lead in a trio with piano or a solo guitar rendition? Or both? And why?

I mean those are two different situations. When playing solo, you have to provide some harmony. If you are playing a solo over a piano and bass, it is a different story.

You can get away with a little bit solo, but yeah, this is more for group playing.

I will often mentally simplify the changes for solo playing, and get from point A to B in different ways, but as you know, you can get away with murder playing solo.

I definitely found too much solo playing hurt my ability to play nice with others.

**Groyniad** · 09-08-2016, 02:47 PM

the effect does - to a degree - depend on the changes you're muscle-ing your way through being stated clearly by an accompanist. - but if they're not there - that can be more interesting (and sometimes easier for a soloist).

very very often it will be the 'important notes' that you select from in picking your targets. 'important notes' doesn't just mean chord tones (you could say that chord tones are all 'significant' - but not all 'important') - it means notes that either play an important role in the melody - or in the harmony.

a great example of the latter would be targeting the flat 7 of Bb just before you go to the 4 chord (F7) in a blues - and a good example of the former might be the flat 5 over the 2 chord near the beginning of A train (i'm deliberately picking very very obvious examples)

**marcwhy** · 09-09-2016, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

What do you mean by "through"?

Listen to/study the cats I mentioned -- and other "modern" players (and yes, Garzone, Lovano, etc. are "older," but still more modern than anyone out there!); they have complete control over their playing, and in one moment can be playing beautiful melodies over the changes, and the next minute they're on the moon, and then they're back again. Their lines are just that: musical lines that come out of the instrument which may, or may not, have anything to do to with the changes; the lines have direction and purpose, though (not "free," whatever that may mean), so they talk about it as playing "through" the changes.

**Reg** · 09-09-2016, 10:32 AM

Yea targets are just another method or approach for verbally breaking down what one wants to do when soloing or comping.
You can play what ever you want... note to note , bar to bar, phrase to phrase, section to section , complete tune or even complete performance etc... the point of being aware of targets or using the approach is just organization.

Your either aware of a reference... the target or organization of targets and then create relationships with that target. You can use what ever you choose to create those relationships. If you like harmonic relationships... use tonal targets. If you lock melodic relationships.... use melodic targets... use rhythmic, dynamic etc.... what ever makes you happy. Or generally whatever you have together.

This approach can be used by one player or can also be interactive, (more in a jazz style).

Jay for you... being a very major/ minor functional player. More from the memorize, rehearse and perform traditions. The application of using tonal targets or Targets where the harmonic relationships are the general organizations and source for developing relationships.... well, basically think Cole Porter... use of borrowing relationships.... Relative and Parallel harmonic relationships. The organization of the targets is based on traditional major functional harmony. So yes using V of I or secondary and extended dominant relationships, with existing chords as Targets and the use of Dominant Chords approaching the existing chords... is example of using Targets. Somewhat Vanilla... but works.

The more common approach might be using Chord Patterns or series of chords which reflect a single harmonic function, like using a I VI II V, or even II V's and calling that chord pattern a Tonic, sub dominant or Dominant Target. And then you need to organize how you want to define that function and what type of relationships you want to create with those targets... Examples could be using melodic relationships, blue notes, different note organization, like playing off the 3rds rather than the root of each chord, or the target of the chord pattern. There are many common practices etc...

Generally what happens... you go through this mental and verbal process... developing understandings of what's possible or what others use and you like, anyway eventually you develop the technique and skills and don't really need to slowly mentally think while performing... it simply becomes like playing a scale or arpeggio etc... part of your musical voice.

In your case where you like to develop arrangements and rehearse performances, it's a great tool. Personally years ago I composed and arranged for all kinds of ensembles... which tends to force one into being able hear and understand complete harmonic functional movement and all the melodic relationships and where they're from or the results tend to crash and burn. It more from the written tradition, where whats performed is heard over and over etc...

If you want... try picking a tune where the application works better. On slow ballads the approach gets lost.... there is just too much space... but I'll still post and example using MFH with example.

**pingu** · 09-09-2016, 11:13 AM

Talking functional harmony tunes here
A thing that works for me
(I think I finally understand the "avoid " or "handle with care" 4th note thing)
Is that the 3rd of the chord of the moment is
Where the diatonic juice lives ...

In C
On a strong beat ...
If you play the F in your line
You're implying the "away" sound
Dmin , Fmaj , G7 , B-7b5
If you play the E
You're implying the "back home" sound
Cmaj , Emin , Amin

So now I'm trying " handle with care" that
3rd or 4th thing conciously

**targuit** · 09-09-2016, 01:01 PM

Ciao, Reg!

"Jay for you... being a very major/ minor functional player. More from the memorize, rehearse and perform traditions. The application of using tonal targets or Targets where the harmonic relationships are the general organizations and source for developing relationships.... well, basically think Cole Porter... use of borrowing relationships.... Relative and Parallel harmonic relationships. The organization of the targets is based on traditional major functional harmony. So yes using V of I or secondary and extended dominant relationships, with existing chords as Targets and the use of Dominant Chords approaching the existing chords... is example of using Targets. Somewhat Vanilla... but works." - Reg

Actually, Reg, when I approach a new song that is totally unfamiliar to me, I copy lyrics if applicable and then annotate by ear the chord progression. I rarely think in terms of scales or modes, though I am quite familiar with jazz theory and analysis. But for me it is unnecessary essentially because I play by ear and I play what I hear. Literally, in performance I just "listen" to what I like to term my "mental jukebox". And any improvisation is just that - not 'rehearsed' or memorized, though I always qualify that any decent musician is never improvising in a vacuum unless he absolutely doesn't know the song at all. And of course I can transpose any tune I know on the fly.

I create arrangements for my personal pleasure - I enjoy writing notation and creating 'backing tracks' for rehearsal purposes. I don't "memorize" arrangements other than to know the song cold. Because of the scarcity of jazz 'gigs' or even just jams, my Sibelius midi files give me something to work off and play over at four o'clock in the morning.

In truth, I don't really know what most musicians do if not "memorize, rehearse, and perform", as if you don't know the song and are just 'winging it', you really can't dig into a song where you have no idea of the melody and progression. On the other hand, if it is good music in the functional harmonic territory, one can anticipate the changes. For example, last night at one point I was listening to a couple of CD videos of the Canadian Tenors who now go simply by the title "the Tenors". They record with David Foster. Of course their music is in the popular vein but derived from the classical music tradition, so their songs are well written with very strong vocal and instrumental harmonies and structure. Given that many of their compositions are originals, I was not familiar with most of the songs, yet because they are well written, you could anticipate the harmonic structure just playing along.

Of course, it would be a different setting if trying to sit in with a jazz quartet. To me the important thing is to know the songs well. That facilitates performance immensely if you know your destination in the next few measures. My reference to use of 'target tones" is more in line with reading the notation. For example, if I'm recording a tune, I don't really need sheet music if I know the song well, but if I'm just rendering the melody, for example, I might glance at the first note of each measure reading ahead. At that point the sheet music is more for keeping the structure organized in terms of sequential verses, choruses, and lyrics when recording. Like a safety backup deal.

The only time I truly read the notation measure by measure while recording or performing is if I don't know the tune. Otherwise I just "hear it" mentally and play what I hear and what I intend.

Beyond that I really don't give thought to theory, modes or scales while performing, though that doesn't mean I cannot analyze what I am doing. In fact lately I have been working more on refining my repertoire of standards as solo guitar renditions or guitar plus vocal. So anything in a group context is really not especially challenging in itself though it demands listening very carefully for nuances of interplay.

As a Canadian, Reg, I suspect you may be familiar with the Tenors, though I doubt their music is your 'cup of tea'. Nonetheless, as a vocalist, I respect their training and dedication.

**pingu** · 09-09-2016, 03:42 PM

I would love to play intuitively
most of the time ....
I do get bursts of it , and its great
when it happens but it only happens when
I'm really at home with the tune etc

I asked John Etheridge what he does to get
Comfortable with a tune , he said
Learn the tune in all keys
Learn the changes in all keys
Work out a CM for the tune in a few keys too
Then me ....
Multiply that by the 5 caged guitar positions
Man that's a LOT of hours and that's one tune

I've fought like that for almost everything I can do on the guitar ...

I didn't get hardly any of it by intuition , wish I had !
But hey I don't regret a second of it

**emanresu** · 09-09-2016, 04:12 PM

As with so many things in music, we can do one thing many ways.

Maybe playing strict chord arps ain't the best way for everyone but sure is a big help for mental muscles and knowledge and all that.

**NSJ** · 09-09-2016, 05:15 PM

Tonal targets separate and apart from changes reminds me of Ed Byrne's concept of the reduced melody. Ed is a Boston-based trombone player who has played with everyone from Chet Baker to Abercrombie to Buddy Rich's big band. He knows his shit.

Like he said, what's the point of playing tunes if all you are actually doing is playing cadences? The most important thing about the music is the melody and the rhythm. A good soloist, per Ed, is one who thinks like a drummer with the essential melodic concepts of a particular tune.

"Play the music, not the theory" he says.

I've included a couple of his Reduced melodies for Autumn Leaves and Stella. Anyone who wants to know what to do with these can check out his website. Byrne Jazz - Home

**Reg** · 09-10-2016, 01:24 AM

Yea... anything can be anything etc...

And most don't seem to put everything together as one... which is what it is, everything is going on all the time whether we're aware or not, by choice or by chance.

Jay... hummm. If your not interested in targets, why are you wasting your time on this thread.

There are many ways to know a tune, beat it into yourself over and over etc... and eventually you get. Or do you, do you know the possibilities of what the tune can imply, where the tune could go.

Or you can simply understand a tune and the spatial aspects etc... which leads to not having to spend a life time learning a tune... it all works. But using targets is just one of many approaches to performing tunes in live settings and not having to play the tune the same way over and over. The other side is... your not always performing solo, or soloing in group setting.

Sometimes we as guitarist need to be able to back up and support someone else soloing, not being able to hear and understand using Targets or Tonal Targets or other melodic, harmonic and rhythmic types of organization is like being that backing track.... many time closing doors to possible relationships and developments during improv. Not always, but what makes a blues in a jazz style different from a rock approach.

Navdeep... I believe when we're verbally discussing different approaches to performing.... yea, we're not performing, we're not even playing right? Targets can be as simple as the melody or reduced version, or rhythmic organization or just making the changes. But you still need organization to what you play besides those targets... which is where the style of targets become more interesting... the next step. You know, you bought a guitar, you might as well tune it before playing. Generally the rhythmic aspect is spatial development or support of melodic and harmonic relationships...

What is making changes, a learning device to be able to play notes which have a relationship with the chord etc, or when developing a melody having an idea what the melody implies harmonically so when you develop the melody you keep the feel and style of the tune... or at least have some natural organization. So if you have a melodic addiction and need to go through the 10 step developmental program... the new melody at the end still has a relationship to the original tune.

Not the only way to go... but pretty common.

Generally when using targets... you can already make the changes. Although as I said... when you use chord patterns it does slow down the harmonic movement.

It all can work in the end...what is the test, is the proof in the pudding or what's in the pudding, or just does it taste good and to whom does it taste good.

**Groyniad** · 09-10-2016, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

I would love to play intuitively
most of the time ....
I do get bursts of it , and its great
when it happens but it only happens when
I'm really at home with the tune etc

I asked John Etheridge what he does to get
Comfortable with a tune , he said
Learn the tune in all keys
Learn the changes in all keys
Work out a CM for the tune in a few keys too
Then me ....
Multiply that by the 5 caged guitar positions
Man that's a LOT of hours and that's one tune

I've fought like that for almost everything I can do on the guitar ...

I didn't get hardly any of it by intuition , wish I had !
But hey I don't regret a second of it

once you've done all this sort of thing for long enough you don't have to do any of it anymore because everything has been appropriately internalized

when it is all appropriately internalized you don't even realize you've learned something - because it comes as naturally to you as the words you speak in unselfconscious conversation at home with friends (when chatting you're not constantly thrilled by your capacity to construct sentences out of a huge range of different kinds of words - in fact it takes real skill to get people to appreciate how extraordinary their mastery of ordinary language is.)

i think if you learn tunes in public - in gigs - you learn them faster (because you have incredible concentration in public performance).

it should be no mystery to any jazz-player that things don't go that well when they don't quite know the bass line/changes/melody to the tune they're playing - and they don't quite know their way around the fretboard in general.

in a way - there's no way to know how good you are until the tune and the fretboard is an open book to you. its only at that point that it becomes about how good your musical imagination is - how musically responsive to others you can be etc.

the trip is that it really is a vast amount of work - you need endless practice and endless gigs. (maybe the more talented ones need fewer hours and fewer gigs.)