Guitar is a visual instrument

[mooncef]

I happen to be a beginner on saxophone ,and i like the fact that's not a visual instrument it pushed me to worked on all key signature one by one , and when i'm playing i'm very conscious of perfect pitch , as opposite of guitar , when i play my perfect pitch awarness is very weak since i mostly know by shape where the relative pitches are , and i visualise each interval with a shape relative to the root, i find it very hard to be both relative and perfect pitch aware on the guitar due to the fact that fretboard is much more complexe than saxophone keys . But on the other hand guitar provides shortcuts to play scales in all keys , without even being aware of their signatures.
So how do you guys manage the fretboard in a healthy way , is it bad that my perfect pitch awarness on guitar is weak ? do you guys think of all the pitch when you are playing lines that are a bit fast ?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I happen to be a beginner on saxophone ,and i like the fact that's not a visual instrument it pushed me to worked on all key signature one by one , and when i'm playing i'm very conscious of perfect pitch , as opposite of guitar , when i play my perfect pitch awarness is very weak since i mostly know by shape where the relative pitches are , and i visualise each interval with a shape relative to the root, i find it very hard to be both relative and perfect pitch aware on the guitar due to the fact that fretboard is much more complexe than saxophone keys . But on the other hand guitar provides shortcuts to play scales in all keys , without even being aware of their signatures.
So how do you guys manage the fretboard in a healthy way , is it bad that my perfect pitch awarness on guitar is weak ? do you guys think of all the pitch when you are playing lines that are a bit fast ?

Your horn realization is, I think, shared by most of us who play another instrument. I talked about this for years, and I don't think people "get it" if they don't play another instrument.

The best thing I've found toward getting closer to this on guitar is relating everything to that 6th string/2nd finger reference. C on the 8th fret/6th string is always in the same place, regardless of whether you're playing C Ionian fingering or C Dorian etc. The 9ths, 11ths et al are all in the same places as well, and you can relate more to what doesn't change in the key signature, rather than thinking about everything in relationship to the root of the chord or key of the moment. Theory relating to chord construction, based on all scales, is greatly simplified as well, and you can actually use the fretboard to aid understanding (like a piano keyboard) rather than the usual guitarist template, which is the opposite: using theory and visual diagrams to try and understand the fretboard.

To me, this feels much more pianistic or horn-istic :-) in that sense. On piano, your first understanding of the location of all of the C's on the keyboard isn't related to music theory. It's related to physical layout - black and white keys. On the guitar, you don't have that, so you have to organize at another level. I think that referencing the same finger/string for each scale degree of the major scale in one key is a great start toward organizing your own layout, similar to black and white piano keys, and seeing the fretboard more in terms of absolute pitch.

[princeplanet]

I think horn players conceptualise notes differently from guitar players because we're used to shapes. A horn player is just as likely to think of notes as they appear on the staff when they play. They're way more into reading, especially from the get go, as well as being generally better at hearing what they're playing, especially trumpet players who are almost having to "sing" every note...

[christianm77]

Sometimes I like to play things on the piano and then put them on the guitar.

[emanresu]

My advice aint backed up well because I'm quite far from what I'd like to be able to do.. but here is a thing that does something good in that matter..
Imagine the notes before playing them. That takes some brain power but it's even possible with simple chords at some point. No singing or humming but "hear" them in your mind first and then try putting them on the guitar.


edit to actually answer OP: I have no perfect pitch.
I used simple layouts: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9v...gzLUVmb0k/view
Its divided to 3 parts. I used to play solos minding that but it became frustrating because then the fingers could do anything but the mind basically shut down often. It felt too awful and much later I decided to try playing without any help from the eyes. Much ear training(a few years) and yeah, that worked much better for me. So I never really know what notes I'm playing but they are um.. way more alive.

For chords I still use that big pattern for quick reference for getting more voicingns to play with but already feeling I might scrap that too some point But as I said up there, I have no authority to say if that's the bestest way to do it.

[Nate Miller]

I play a little horn, too, and the thing about horn playing is to get a sound out of a horn, you have to be pressing specific keys to get a specific note. From day one there is a sheet of music in front of you. There is generally only one or two fingerings for a note, too

same on piano, there is only one middle c

piano is a visual instrument for sure

on a guitar, however, there are 5 places you can get a middle C. That is what makes reading so hard on guitar.

but also, you don't even have to know what note you are playing to get a sound out of a guitar. So most guitar strummers learn how to play and then learn how to read (if they ever even need to learn to read at all)

I know what mooncef is talking about, though. Playing a horn is like pulling the notes out of the clear blue compared to a guitar.

[destinytot]

I'm trying to get my trumpet chops together. Trumpet's my main 'horn' reference for guitar - not so much because of the range, but because the challenge of legato has similarities on both instruments.

(I've just made a small breakthrough with lines on guitar because of it: making musical statements in phrases from point A to point B. Kind of 'focusing on the fence-posts - and trusting the fence'...)

[Nate Miller]

brass instruments I could never do anything with. The values are like some strange sort of alchemy to me. Hell, a sax is a visual instrument compared to a trumpet. At least all the keys are arranged from bottom to top on those things

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well, I learned guitar with sheet music in front of me. I had played saxophone in school , and just aimed you'd play the guitar the same way. I was little to dense to really understand at first the thing about strumming chords without respect sheet music. Ha ha. :-)

What mooncef describes about playing horn is absolutely true for most guitarists who learn to read music first, as well........ in open position.

And that's the kicker. There is a kinesthetic connection to the nut, the open strings etc. in first position. You can pretty easily relate to absolute pitch in first position. When you go up the neck, things change somewhat , at least the way we usually approach playing/reading up the neck. To account for not having open strings, we utilize fingerings which are not consistent to four given frets. You very often have to shift hand position to simply change key by one flat or sharp.

We are also mostly taught to relate changing key centers to roots of the key or chord of the moment. So, for changing from key of C to key of F, for example, we are relating to roots on different strings with different fingers and sometimes, different position.

The second finger reference I'm talking about above directly addresses many of these problems. The reference is to a given pitch in the same place in each position, for each scale degree. Physical relationships to this reference pitch remain constant , regardless of key signature. In my mind that's much closer to what I experienced playing sax.

I always thought this was a Reg thing , but Kurt Rosenwinkel talks about this in almost exactly the same way, down to the verbiage he uses about every aspect. He always mentions others using similar approaches. Reg has always talked about others using this approach. Apparently it's a thing. :-)

I think it's definitely an approach worth looking at for anyone interested in seeing the guitar fretboard in a different way.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ha. Just noticed how short this particular video of Rosenwinkel is. Need to find the next part I guess.

[destinytot]

brass instruments I could never do anything with. The values are like some strange sort of alchemy to me. Hell, a sax is a visual instrument compared to a trumpet. At least all the keys are arranged from bottom to top on those things

Yes, nothing visual. But I don't think the valves are the hardest part. I got myself a copy of Clark Terry's lessons for beginners on VHS, learned to 'buzz' enough to produce a sound, managed to find two Gs and two Cs, and worked out where other notes are by trial and error.

Embouchure and breath support are the hardest part for me; I find they fall apart when I'm half-guessing - but solfege sorts that out. I find the 'ear' reference transfers wonderfully - and visually, without necessarily looking (thanks to Reg's fingerings) - to guitar.

Not so much 'back to basics', because I never did them in the first place - but I'm learning (consolidating) my way around keys using movable Do along with my daughter:

[matt.guitarteacher]

One small comment regarding trumpet: there's still a very strong connection with each note in terms of kinesthetics. Each pitch FEELS unique, with respect to embouchure/fingering, even if it shares a fingering with another pitch. Again, guitar doesn't actually have as much of that. The kinesthetic aspect, up the neck, is almost black-and-white....colorless.

[destinytot]

One small comment regarding trumpet: there's still a very strong connection with each note in terms of kinesthetics. Each pitch FEELS unique, with respect to embouchure/fingering, even if it shares a fingering with another pitch.

I'm not sure that's so, because the fingering is shared with (at least) two other pitches. (My trumpet fingerings are 'wrong', but I know some players use 'false fingerings' with skill.) I think I can relate moving up or down in semitones via the valves to doing the same via the frets. But I don't think visualization of larger interval 'shapes' works on trumpet the way it can on guitar; I think you absolutely have to 'hear' the target pitch.

[MarkRhodes]

And that's the kicker. There is a kinesthetic connection to the nut, the open strings etc. in first position. You can pretty easily relate to absolute pitch in first position. When you go up the neck, things change somewhat...

Ironically, open position is the hardest position to play guitar in! That is, the frets are furthest apart there and you have to swing out your left arm from the elbow to play there. The guitar is much easier to play (physically play) in the sixth and eighth positions. Bb is home base for me! ;o)

[destinytot]

My best visualisation tool (magnetic whiteboard, coloured magnets, marker pens):

[Guitarzen]

I happen to be a beginner on saxophone ,and i like the fact that's not a visual instrument it pushed me to worked on all key signature one by one , and when i'm playing i'm very conscious of perfect pitch , as opposite of guitar , when i play my perfect pitch awarness is very weak since i mostly know by shape where the relative pitches are , and i visualise each interval with a shape relative to the root, i find it very hard to be both relative and perfect pitch aware on the guitar due to the fact that fretboard is much more complexe than saxophone keys . But on the other hand guitar provides shortcuts to play scales in all keys , without even being aware of their signatures.
So how do you guys manage the fretboard in a healthy way , is it bad that my perfect pitch awarness on guitar is weak ? do you guys think of all the pitch when you are playing lines that are a bit fast ?

I'm a little confused by your post. If your ear is well trained it doesn't just turn off when you play another instrument, right? If a string on my guitar is even slightly out of tune I immediately notice it - because my ears are well trained. If I played two notes in a scale on any other instrument I would know immediately if they were not tuned. So I don't just mindlessly play shapes and not hear the tuning. I'm thinking you are probably just so new to guitar that you are overly focused on the shapes (the trees) and losing sight of the forest so to speak. Any guitarist who has been playing for a significant amount of time, and certainly everyone on this forum has the ability to hear out of tune notes. Certainly there are levels to how well your ears are trained based on experience and natural ability etc...and whether or not you have done any focused ear training. I think you are also using the term "perfect pitch" when you really mean "relative pitch". If you had perfect pitch at all, it wouldn't matter what instrument you were playing, but then again, if you have good relative pitch it shouldn't matter either. I'm guessing also the difference in timbre is throwing you off. The guitar has a much thinner metallic timbre compared to the warm breathy sound of a saxophone and that could be throwing your pitch recognition off. Anyways, just keep practicing. And no, I'm fairly sure most guitarists do not only play shapes and ignore the tuning of the notes....unless they are at the very beginning stages or just unfortunately tone deaf. Ear training is something that just gets trained naturally without having to be conscious of it, I think. But when you go through formal ear training, you simply have the ability to name what you are hearing, i.e. the difference between a m6 and m7 interval.

[rlrhett]

FWIW, brain scientist have noticed a physical difference between the brains of a piano player and a violin players. I am not a brain researcher, but I am fascinated by it and try to pick up what I can. As with any random post, take what I pass on with a grain of salt.

It is my understanding that when playing a violinist stimulates a part of the brain involved in pattern recognition while a pianist stimulates the memory centers. Over time, apparently, the brain actually develops more synapses to accommodate the ever increasing complexity of patterns in string instruments to the point where life long stringed instrument players develop a characteristic structure in the brain that brain researchers can identify.

To me, part of what makes the guitar so enthralling is that it is a "pattern recognition machine". We all have experienced just running through scales and turning our brains off. But I think we shortchange what makes our instrument special if we simply dismiss anytime we use patterns and formulas as not being true musicianship. I believe that learning how to use patterns to make new patterns, weaving patterns together, keeping track of patterns despite "pattern noise", etc., is every bit as important as hearing single notes in our heads and playing them. Active listening is crucial for any musician regardless of their instrument, but I'm glad I play a stringed instrument and hope my daughter chooses one over a keyed instrument when she begins to play.

[Thumpalumpacus]

When I improvise I think in terms of intervals, first. Playing over a passage, I might hear in my mind's ear that a particular interval or two would really take me where I want to go, and then I reckon what scale or mode will get me there. While I don't often play looking at my fretboard, and often play eyes-closed, it's still visual in the sense that I'm referencing scale-shapes.

At that point, I narrow it down to the intervals I want to hear at that moment in time. Again in my mind's ear I'll imagine a tangy natural 6 against a flat 3 slind into the 4, or what-have you, and chase the dragon. It's automated physically, in that my fingers are well aware of where they are and where the intervals lie on the 'board -- but it's unfolding in my head and there is a little processing (as little as possible!) in defining the course I'm charting.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in practicing I do use visual (or shape-oriented) thinking, but that's only in service of teaching my brain-finger connection which mechanical motions are required to reproduce which inspired musical thoughts.

I should add that it sounds much better reading than listening -- this is a lifelong pursuit, being inside the moment.

[destinytot]

I believe that learning how to use patterns to make new patterns, weaving patterns together, keeping track of patterns despite "pattern noise", etc., is every bit as important as hearing single notes in our heads and playing them.

Thanks for this. I'm warming to the idea of using patterns as wholeheartedly (with as much commitment and trust) as I use ears. I imagine that my magnetic whiteboard, coloured magnets and marker pens can help me with patterns I find difficult. Working out sounds as colourful visual patterns appeals to me.

[MarkRhodes]

FWIW, brain scientist have noticed a physical difference between the brains of a piano player and a violin players. I am not a brain researcher, but I am fascinated by it and try to pick up what I can. As with any random post, take what I pass on with a grain of salt.

It is my understanding that when playing a violinist stimulates a part of the brain involved in pattern recognition while a pianist stimulates the memory centers. Over time, apparently, the brain actually develops more synapses to accommodate the ever increasing complexity of patterns in string instruments to the point where life long stringed instrument players develop a characteristic structure in the brain that brain researchers can identify.

To me, part of what makes the guitar so enthralling is that it is a "pattern recognition machine". We all have experienced just running through scales and turning our brains off. But I think we shortchange what makes our instrument special if we simply dismiss anytime we use patterns and formulas as not being true musicianship. I believe that learning how to use patterns to make new patterns, weaving patterns together, keeping track of patterns despite "pattern noise", etc., is every bit as important as hearing single notes in our heads and playing them. Active listening is crucial for any musician regardless of their instrument, but I'm glad I play a stringed instrument and hope my daughter chooses one over a keyed instrument when she begins to play.

+1. Great post.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't know that this is the article rlrhett alluded to above, but I think it's based on the same research.

String Players' Brains are "Special"

[destinytot]

Hmm... flashcards and pelmanism (for visualisation and memorisation).

Perhaps Hot Potatoes* to make matching exercises - by embedding pictures and audio. Pretty easy to do.
Download Hot Potatoes

Along these lines - but with images of shapes on a fretboard and audio of musical phrases (or a written description), obviously!

*EDIT Quizlet looks easier https://quizlet.com

[bako]

Every instrument comes with it's own mechanical challenges and set of sonic rewards.

I like to think of guitar a collection of 6 individual instruments mounted over
a singular fingerboard and sharing a common resonator (or set of pickups).

Within this mindset each string is structured very simply.
The open string is the lowest note for each instrument and every fret progresses upward one half step.
While we lack the easy visual aid of a piano (black and white notes), we often have fret markers.

Intervals on a single string:

Fret differential:

1 - m2
2 - ma2
3 - m3
4 - ma3
5 - P4
ect.

These are consistent on all 6 strings.

It is in the coordination of the 6 strings that the conceptual challenges kick in.
The almost symmetrical tuning of the guitar offers advantages and some disadvantages as well.

Each interval has 2 viable melodic options of where the notes are located and at times with more than one possibility of left hand fingers than can play the notes. If there are 2 choices for each interval than the possibilities multiply rapidly when dealing with more complex interval sets like arpeggios, scales and melodies.

It is cool to have 2,3,4 or 5 varying tonal colors to express a note before we even add the influence of the right hand articulation. Alternate fingering options at times can make an impossible chord voicing playable using different string combinations.

Music materials on the other hand are very constant and stable. Memorize your key signatures, chord spellings, etc.
While there are some musicians who find a way to access the music directly, many of us find it necessary to engage with a thought process along the way. There are things that need to be internalized so well that whole swaths of info can be accessed by a single gesture.

Back to the fingerboard, while it is not as simple as we might like, it is important to learn it as well as possible to function as a musician in a variety of contexts.

Two things that helped me:

learning to play in 12 keys within any 5 frets
learning to visualize any material at all the unison/octave locations while maintaining the same string group configuration

[destinytot]

Every instrument comes with it's own mechanical challenges and set of sonic rewards.

I like to think of guitar a collection of 6 individual instruments mounted over
a singular fingerboard and sharing a common resonator (or set of pickups).

Within this mindset each string is structured very simply.
The open string is the lowest note for each instrument and every fret progresses upward one half step.
While we lack the easy visual aid of a piano (black and white notes), we often have fret markers.

Intervals on a single string:

Fret differential:

1 - m2
2 - ma2
3 - m3
4 - ma3
5 - P4
ect.

These are consistent on all 6 strings.

It is in the coordination of the 6 strings that the conceptual challenges kick in.
The almost symmetrical tuning of the guitar offers advantages and some disadvantages as well.

Each interval has 2 viable melodic options of where the notes are located and at times with more than one possibility of left hand fingers than can play the notes. If there are 2 choices for each interval than the possibilities multiply rapidly when dealing with more complex interval sets like arpeggios, scales and melodies.

It is cool to have 2,3,4 or 5 varying tonal colors to express a note before we even add the influence of the right hand articulation. Alternate fingering options at times can make an impossible chord voicing playable using different string combinations.

Music materials on the other hand are very constant and stable. Memorize your key signatures, chord spellings, etc.
While there are some musicians who find a way to access the music directly, many of us find it necessary to engage with a thought process along the way. There are things that need to be internalized so well that whole swaths of info can be accessed by a single gesture.

Back to the fingerboard, while it is not as simple as we might like, it is important to learn it as well as possible to function as a musician in a variety of contexts.

Two things that helped me:

learning to play in 12 keys within any 5 frets
learning to visualize any material at all the unison/octave locations while maintaining the same string group configuration

That's a great post. Personally, I want to use external tools to work on visualising lines/phrases.

[JazzMuzak]

Well, I learned guitar with sheet music in front of me. I had played saxophone in school , and just aimed you'd play the guitar the same way. I was little to dense to really understand at first the thing about strumming chords without respect sheet music. Ha ha. :-)

What mooncef describes about playing horn is absolutely true for most guitarists who learn to read music first, as well........ in open position.

And that's the kicker. There is a kinesthetic connection to the nut, the open strings etc. in first position. You can pretty easily relate to absolute pitch in first position. When you go up the neck, things change somewhat , at least the way we usually approach playing/reading up the neck. To account for not having open strings, we utilize fingerings which are not consistent to four given frets. You very often have to shift hand position to simply change key by one flat or sharp.

We are also mostly taught to relate changing key centers to roots of the key or chord of the moment. So, for changing from key of C to key of F, for example, we are relating to roots on different strings with different fingers and sometimes, different position.

The second finger reference I'm talking about above directly addresses many of these problems. The reference is to a given pitch in the same place in each position, for each scale degree. Physical relationships to this reference pitch remain constant , regardless of key signature. In my mind that's much closer to what I experienced playing sax.

I always thought this was a Reg thing , but Kurt Rosenwinkel talks about this in almost exactly the same way, down to the verbiage he uses about every aspect. He always mentions others using similar approaches. Reg has always talked about others using this approach. Apparently it's a thing. :-)

I think it's definitely an approach worth looking at for anyone interested in seeing the guitar fretboard in a different way.

I wish I knew where the second half to that video was.

Could you elaborate on this a little more or perhaps do a lesson? I guess I just don't totally see the benefit from a system like this....so you go through every key and practice every position individually and then put them together? And then you're thinking of what changes from the natural notes in each key?

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing the inherent benefit of this system over any other.

To use your example, Say I play "Ionian" position at C on the 8th fret and we modulate to F, I now know that I'm in in the "Mixolydian" position for F and the only note that has changed is Bb...but how is this inherently better than just thinking of intervals, or thinking CAGED and knowing that I'm going from "E Shape" to "A Shape"?