-
Dear Jazz Guitar Community,
my main problem as stated by my teachers (and I have some of the best in town) is that I am majorily playing right on the beat or even a bit rushing (swing setting). I even transcribed Dex' solo on Love for Sale to maybe get a bit more laid back, I play the solo perfectly, but it doesn't help me much like in other tunes. There is this very famous Metheny Lesson with a stranger - it makes me realize how important this aspect of rhythm/phrasing/articulation is...
Sometimes it happens that I play laid-back and I notice, but I can't make this situation happen naturally, you know? I want and have to have full control of my beat placements, and don't know where to start, I am really willing to master it and have time for it!
Any advice is appreciated! How did you approach it? How do you practice it? Sometimes it is not so easy to grasp & understand?
Thanks so much in advance,
Horszt
-
07-31-2016 06:14 AM
-
you mean the Latin one?
Originally Posted by Horszt
Anyway, these are the most complex aspects of playing jazz, in my opinion . I'm a little bothered that good teachers tell you it's a problem without giving you an approach. I mean, if this isn't the kind of thing that you'd need a teacher for, what is ?
The only thing I can think of is that with horn players etc. , they probably have most of this together already. By that, I mean that they can basically subdivide. At the very least, get in a percussionist book to learn systematic subdivisions of the beat. At fast tempos, playing ahead or behind is very much a feel thing, but at slower tempos, they are concrete and you can count them. Counted "rhythms" at slow tempos teach your ears "feels" for tempos at which they're uncountable. I might shop around for teachers , honestly. If only for this , maybe just as one offs.
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Readin.../dp/0769233775
Don't get too bogged down in the advanced 16th note based rhythms if you don't have any basics for triplet feel , 12/, 6/8 etc. get some triplets together. skip ahead to some of the triplets stuff. quarter note and eighth note triplets are the basis for jazz/blues more so than even quarter notes or eighth notes. Being able to hear them and play across all subdivisions isn't really optional.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-31-2016 at 07:34 AM.
-
I'm thinking along the same lines as Matt here. One big exercise that I use is learning to feel quarter note triplets on a given tempo.
If you are rushing the beat the chances are you don't have that 6/8 quarter note triplet in your playing. I would advise checking out Jonathon Kreisberg's video or the Mike Longo Rhythmic Nature of Jazz materials. I'm sure there's other materials detailing the 6 over 4 polyrhythm.
When I warm up to play fast tunes, one exercise I use, for example, if to set the metronome on 2 and 4 at say 140 (so actual tempo is 280) tap my foot on 1 and 3 and sing quarter and half note triplets against the click.
What tends to happen is I either turn the triplet into a Charleston rhythm or my foot ends up on 2 and 4 (I invert the beat) because I'm subconsciously trying to line up the second note of the triplet with the click. If I can get the click in between my sung notes, the polyrhythm suddenly snaps into focus.
If I get it right (it's easier at slower tempos) - the tempo suddenly feels relaxed to me.
Another important concept that's helped me is the realisation that upbeats should always be placed on the 3rd triplet. Try playing a long with Li'l Darlin by the Basie Orchestra for a masterclass in that. But - you might say - players don't actually always play triplet swing. They play straight, right? Dexter is a classic example.
The thing is that the upbeat remains the upbeat very accurately, but the downbeat can be relaxed and behind the beat. When you find this place, you will go 'ooohhh.' I'm getting there. I can't remember who exactly, but a few guys have analysed different swing feels and this appears to be the case, upbeats are always swung, but downbeats can be late.
But true swing is much straighter than the textbooks say. I would advise practicing straight 8's even at slow tempos. Never try to swing, aim to exercise rhythms with accuracy and the swing will happen. Don't get excited either, which is hard because good rhythm sections are exciting.
Without you posting an example of your playing, it's hard to say what exactly you need to work on, but I daresay it'll be something like this. We've all been there, and time/feel is a life's study. The main thing is to get as interested in rhythm as you are in harmony, theory, techique etc - if not more so!
-
07-31-2016, 07:50 AM #4destinytot Guest
I'm all for study, but (for me) rhythm has to be a 'doing' - an experience. I find talking about it messes it up (by taking the 'life' out of it). But I hope this is helpful (as a way of learning to fish):
-
07-31-2016, 08:19 AM #5destinytot Guest
PS Personally, I would first practise without a metronome - tapping my own foot. In my view, a metronome is a tool for confirmation. IMO, rhythm should first be felt within.
Not only is that kind of self-awareness (for me) an essential function of music, I actually think self-expression through finding (surrender to?) natural rhythm a wonderfully liberating therapeutic experience. (Not for nothing are meditative practices -including 'breathing' - practised by many non-wind instrumentalists.) Discipline, yes; tyranny, no.
For me, the issue of rhythm is not so much about Time - it's about (self-) Trust. Badass players bring that confidence to metronome training - and to the bandstand.
-
Imho, you should just listen and as often as you can sing along with records of players with great time feel: Metheny, Scofield, Wes, George are just few names among guitar players. Brecker, Coltrane, lovano, garzone etc among sax players.
I think you don't even need to transcribe if you don't want.
Just listen, sing along trying to really internalize the song. Maybe it would take a longer time then you wish but I think it would take further.
Playing with good musicians is great for awerness - from overall awerness of the song to specific situations in the song - mostly because very often musicians in the band have to practice together certain passages to get them right and everybody feels things differently. It helps when one player has authority.
One thing that also helped me greatly with time feel is when I switched to Benson grip. Instantly.Last edited by mikostep; 07-31-2016 at 12:27 PM.
-
To play behind the beat one must listen to others doing it such as Dexter Gordon, Lester Young, Erroll Garner, Miles Davis' "So What" solo, etc....
Don't try to get it from on top of the beat players like Pat Martino, John Coltrane, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Oscar Peterson, etc.
Each day when you train with Aebersold tracks (use the RON CARTER tracks only for this) tell yourself before you begin that you are going phrase behind the pulse, then for refreshment play the next phrase on the pulse. Back and forth this ways thousands of times and it will become second nature. Also accelerate and ritard within the phrases like Erroll Garner always did. Don't play like a machine.
In the intro you can hear his left hand boogie on the pulse and his right hand around 100 milliseconds behind... then at times throughout piece he will switch to being on the pulse for refreshment. For example his head melody is behind but his brass like chord stabs are on pulse for dramatic contrast. This behind the beat stuff probably dates back to black singers that were brought to America by slave traders.
Erroll Garner is the best example of behind the beat: his left hand played strict on while his right hand intentional laid back:
Last edited by rintincop; 07-31-2016 at 10:16 PM.
-
That's a great recording. Thanks for sharing. Originally Posted by rintincop
I still think it's important to understand, at some level, what is actually going on. This is triplet-based blues phrasing. Mostly triplet polyrhythms for the "behind" phrasing, of course, played by a master.
I think the simplest conclusion to draw, as to how the masters developed this kind of phrasing, is that they played a whole lot of blues, particularly 12/8 style, with mostly triplet phrasing throughout. When all subdivisions of the beat are pretty heavily outlined , it's easier to hear. Then, when you hear it in another context , without all of the underlying structure, It's this magical "feel", but make no mistake, these guys are subdividing .
Listen to the fills in this one,.... most of the solos, Billie's phrasing...It's almost all triplets. Where she's bobbing her head in some of the solos , she subdividing.
Regardless of how you conceive of it , in the end, it would seem highly advantageous to understand the underlying rhythmic structure, beyond just listening a thousand times until you "feel" it. I think one would learn to "feel" it faster after learning to subdivide. Just my take.
-
I wouldn't understate the importance of listening, and of playing the music with experienced musicians.
Understanding more about the way jazz rhythms are built has been really helpful though for me. I find it helps to know what to listen out for.
There seems to be a misconception that jazz rhythm is in some way relaxed, or ill-defined. Over 20 odd years of playing this music I realise that jazz rhythm is very accurate and while complex is possible in principle to notate, although accurately transcribed jazz rhythms would be impractical to read!
While it sounds like Lester Young and Billie Holliday are floating over the rhythm section, there is never any rhythmic weakness.
There is also a richness to jazz rhythm as many layers of polymeter can be expressed in one line.
That's a rather scientific way of putting it, and in fact this stuff is primarily learned experientially, but that doesn't change the fact that their is a concept in their of polymetric time that's just intuitive and completely internalised with these musicians. It an be easy to miss if you aren't aware of it, by transcribing/hearing rhythms slightly inaccurately and so on.Last edited by christianm77; 08-01-2016 at 05:11 AM.
-
Playing behind the beat requires knowing where the beat is!
The OP mentions rushing, and the issue of rushing is separate from playing behind the beat. You need to first control the tendency to rush.
It seems to me rushing is pretty common for guitar players, and I suspect (as a chronic rusher myself) that personality has something to do with it. I find that I rush when I make mistakes: my instinct is to conclude I fell behind, whereas typically I get slightly ahead. Most of the time this happens when overthinking while improvising.
As far as practicing playing behind the beat, that Pat Metheny thing where you play on, before and after a metronome click is pretty helpful. Any exercise that requires careful timing also helps me. For example the one where you play (say scales or better simple improv) for a while using only the "spang-a-lang" ride cymbal pattern with a metronome
1, 2, 2and, 3, 4,4and
and then play where you displace this pattern one with note triplet, then where you displace it two eight note triplets. the three different feels this gives, and the challenge of keeping it honest is a great workout.
-
I always thought it was a waste of time to try to force oneself to practice being either behind, on, or in front of the beat.
Being on top is not better or worse than being behind, it's a stylistic consideration. I almost said "choice", but it's not. Dexter Gordon, who I love always said in interviews that he wasn't aware that he played behind the beat. It just happened that way....
One's phrasing and sense of time / swing naturally evolves. If someone (teacher?) points out that you are playing too far in front, maybe you should work closely with metronomes to at least bring your time back to being "on top" of the beat. But if it feels unnatural to play behind, maybe it's not meant to be...
-
A matter of choice...
Yes, if you choose just to listen and internalize from great players you'll have (hopefully) a "feeling" of it and be free to think of other things while improvising. If you choose to practice it with metronome, subdivisions practices etc. you'll have a "knowledge" of it, but there's a chance you'll use your mental power during improvisation depending on what use as a guide. You can do both.
-
Good point and good post. Originally Posted by pkirk
I do think, however, that basic subdivision is the common denominator to a lot of these timing issues. I'll go ahead and admit my particular bias on this is based on my experience. I've spent my entire adult working life working with kids, amateur adult volunteers at churches, private students etc. I play weekly with musicians who are pretty widely varied in experience , knowledge and ability.
Subdividing the beat at some level works to solve many problems, which at at first glance, seem to be so great as to be unsolvable. I still find it amazing to see instantaneous turnaround in someone who's playing completely out of time, with a single comment that gets at the actual problem.
Tempo problems with my teenage drummers are often solved by pointing out a poly metric pattern or groove which, on the surface, is actually more "complicated". But it solves the rushing problem or feel problem.
The fastest way to get that rookie Second-grader who's playing "one-string twinkle twinkle" to play in time is to get him/her thinking/saying " watermelon, watermelon".
There's simply too much space between quarter notes, depending on tempo, four most. To my ears, the best musicians are always subdividing mentally a common denominator less than what they're probably actually playing.
-
I think the Metheny thing of playing every note behind maybe a more advanced thing for sure. But the audio examples posted in this thread are pretty straightforward and easily notated. Playing quarter note triplets over 4/4 time isn't mysticism and I think is in a different category from the kind of specific-to-player "feel" that you're talking about. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I mean, if you're talking about someone who's learning , and otherwise has trouble playing in time , you can't just chalk it up to their "style". :-)
-
I think the behind the beat/on the beat dichotomy comes from thinking about the downbeat. The upbeats are where it's at, and the upbeats in jazz are very specific. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Anyway Horzt - your practice assignment if you choose to accept it is to sing along with this while tapping eight triplets and then when that's mastered, quarter note triplets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMibKxQWRnw
Actually, I better go and do that.
-
I also think there is a great deal of ambiguity with this topic in general. The Methany thing of playing every note behind ahead or on top.... or generally, players distinctive style of where they happen to place a "quarter note", is quite different from basic phrasing variations which make jazz jazz.
it just seems that some are using the term "behind" in places to generally describe a broad category of rhythmic structures which they don't otherwise know how to describe.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-01-2016 at 10:26 AM.
-
Indeed. For example - placing straight eights with the second eight on the second triplet up beat, means that the first eight will come after the beat. That's one approximation of a mature swing feel (in practice there is usually more inequality AFAIK.) Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
But that's not some random, wishy washy 'behind-ness.'
Another one; lay back = place the first note on the second triplet of the beat. If you haven't tried it, try it. It's hip.
-
The OP mentions being able to play Dexter's "Love for Sale" solo perfectly, so not a rank novice... Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
This is a video demonstrating or attempting to demonstrate some of the stuff I am going on about:
<br>
It's a bit long, so it's taking ages to process.
-
Mike Moreno's video series is what you need. I believe you only need the 3rd vid, which is $9. His comping video will cover everything you need.
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/a...s/mike-moreno/
-
Interesting, I will check this out in due course. I'm still working on what's come up from video 1. Originally Posted by eh6794
-
I think I learned about the series from one of your posts a few weeks ago... I think. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Always enjoy your playing. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
i think it has to be intuitive at least to start with
so you can get to intuition through careful conscious training - but that's not what i mean - i mean learning how to feel it by doing it
and i can't think of a better way of doing it than by trying to copy the phrasing of great singers
i recommend frank sinatra (he's really quite good) and if you feel really ambitious after getting frank to help you as much as possible - billie holiday
learn a tune like say if i had you or memories of you (nice 'simple' tunes) and then try to play along with frank singing the thing.
you will discover IMMEDIATELY that his phrasing is 1000 times better than yours (unless you're already a flippin genius)
learn how to feel the tune the way he does - and you can only do that by listening to it A LOT and learning to sing it with him - and then trying to play along
this makes me realize that too much guitar practice has turned me into a kind of machine - but that never happened to frank. there is NO SUCH THING as rhythmically straight phrasing in the music.
there is no doubt in my mind that you need to imagine yourself singing when you're playing in order to get this - and that to do that YOU NEED THE WORDS. its SPOKEN rhythms that subvert the tendency to make musical rhythms metronomic or mechanical.
-
and i'm surprised none of our barry harris people haven't mentioned his whole thing about feeling slow bars of 4 beats as 4 lots of 3s - 123/223/323/423 sort of thing (though i'm sure that's the gist of what matt and christian are saying)
he's incredibly good at getting this across intuitively - and he says you can't swing a ballad without feeling square time as triangle time (so to speak)
Reply With Quote
dearmond 1100 reissue vs original which one is...
Today, 03:30 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos