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I think I just wanted to make a post without using the words Barry Harris for a change ;-)
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08-02-2016 07:04 AM
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I used to listen to lots of slow tunes by great ballad players (e.g. Dexter Gordon) and I found that I started to approach them this way.
Originally Posted by Groyniad
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08-02-2016, 08:03 AM #29destinytot GuestThe OP's candour does a huge favour to some of us on the forum. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Judicious 'bouncing' of prominent/loud-soft rhythmic accents, 'lightning' legato double-time, 'tumbling' triplet phrases... I hope to play that way one day.
Without wishing to antagonise anyone, playing 'heads' - or transcribed solos - with 'the right notes' means nothing without 'the right rhythm'.
That's my takeaway from my hour's consultation with Pasquale Grasso about 'bebop'. (That, and some personalised advice about left-hand.)
Like the man said, 'It Don't Mean a Thing' - but that swing is deeply personal. If you don't feel it, maybe it ain't for you - and that's fine. (In my view, to sanitise Swing isa form of evil.)
On a positive note - plosive (but not explosive) - I (seriously) suggest practising pronunciation of the word 'banana' as preparation for placement of prominent beats.
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08-02-2016, 08:10 AM #30destinytot GuestFor me, that's truly vocational - beautiful. Originally Posted by RyanM
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I honestly think that the problem is that you are just too stiff. So practicing how to be even more precise isn't going to help that.
I once had a reggae player explain to me the secret of playing the reggae feel. He said that before you play, you should eat a whole chicken. Boiled chicken, fried chicken, it don't matter but you should eat a whole chicken
you see where that is going? You need that satisfied, lazy feeling from eating an entire chicken to be in the right frame of mind to play the reggae. It isn't as silly as it sounded at first, is it?
To play jazz, you just have to be cool
so if you know what jazz sounds like, then just play jazz
but if you haven't spent a period of your life where you listened to nothing but jazz, then just try that
it is a dialect and a language, you must immerse yourself
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08-02-2016, 09:02 AM #32destinytot GuestHere's a 'feel-along'. (Patent pending on what the late Joe Lee Wilson used to call 'syncopated silence'): Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I think that's the effect, not the cause you have there. That's like telling someone to relax. RELAX! Originally Posted by Nate Miller
A professional musician isn't going to get very far if they have to be fed properly in order to play well haha :-) Although perhaps you get fed better on Reggae gigs. Actually come to think of it, I totally buy that.
But seriously, there is a way into this well fed state of mind that is kinder on the waistline.
I buy Mike Longo's explanation that in order to get that 'relaxed' not 'stiff' sound in your playing you have to feel the quarter and half note triplets on a deep level. That's how you find that floating, cool quality. I find it helps me find this place.
Enough musicians have said similar things. To me there is a huge difference between what Lester Young does and what a player without that rhythmic concept does when they try to 'float.' One is playing out of time. The other is accessing a hipper level of rhythm.
It's about being precise but not being worried about it. I mean playing on top of the beat without realising it is obviously not precision, but it comes from being worried about precision, right? Playing or tapping out the beat while singing quarter triplets are a classic way of find where the pulse in jazz actually is without having to try and 'nail it' directly.
But in general, what you are feeling when you play and what the audience feels are often two unconnected things. you won't be feeling excited when you are swinging. You might in fact be resisting the temptation to 'make something happen' and keeping yourself very even and in the moment. Playing with a good 'pocket' drummer and bass player will remind you of this.
Punters don't like to think of it that way. It's up to you to maintain the illusion by wearing a cool hat, and not giving away the magic trick. We are in showbiz, right? I'm not very good at that TBH :-)
Anyway this is all academic without some actual playing from the OP. I understand if it's too public a place.Last edited by christianm77; 08-02-2016 at 10:03 AM.
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Yea some good advice...
Personally different styles of music require different "feels" of rhythm, or where you play the attach(s) of a rhythmic figure.
First as mentioned... you can't play different feels until you can play straight time, which is what using a metronome and working through percussion studies etc... is about. You learn to recognize rhythmic phrases and possibilities of articulations.
After that... you learn the next level of sub-dividing, creating feels. There is a difference between playing an attack on 1+, or the and (+) of 1... and playing that same 8th note when it becomes related to beat 2... +2.
Playing the 2nd 8th note in a bar, the + of 1 has a different feel from playing that same spatial location when that 8th note is an anticipation of beat 2.
This same concept or approach to playing rhythmic figures, needs to be understood and practiced. By that I mean, just as you practice playing straight time, when practicing. You need to practice playing ahead and behind of the attacks. That is done by, as I said above... which down beat you relate the off beat to.
Then you take the next step... this same concept is applied with articulations. Different feels imply rhythmic figures, which become the strong beats and attacks. Not just down and up beats. The strong attacks of a feel or groove... all become down beats and then the weak attacks become what you then adjust, play ahead or behind because of which strong attack your relating that weak attack to.
It sounds more complicated than it is... because the skill is developed in stages. Eventually you know and can just feel different styles from their names etc..
Not to make it even more complicated... but there are standard harmonic implications also, what and where different chords are played or implied, which helps to also imply feel and style.
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This, too Originally Posted by Reg
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which was basically all I was trying to say Originally Posted by christianm77
I play a lot of ethnic styles. they all have their own feel, but all my life I just played those styles by listening to that kind of music until I had it in my ears. I got to play with a lot of guys who knew what that style was supposed to sound like, too
so I'm all for listening and immersing yourself in the style. Do that and everything else generally takes care of itself
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It seems to me that one element missing from this conversation is slurs, which de-emphasize attack, as opposed to picking the note. Ahead-of-beat and behind-the-beat both happen in jazz, but if you want to talk about emphasizing this or that note in a solo, addressing the physics of pick-strike vs bend/slide has to come in somewhere. The simple attack of the pick will give emphasis even to the notes of very subtle players, no?
I don't pick every note. That choice itself is one more option for emphasis.
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08-03-2016, 05:32 AM #38destinytot GuestSomeone posted a link (yesterday?) to recordings of their organ trio gig, in which the guitarist seems to use a (volume?) pedal to de-emphasise attack at the start of certain phrases. Very cool, I thought/think. Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
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Ooh, where? Originally Posted by destinytot
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I think a volume pedal is perhaps the most-overlooked floor effect, both for special effects like the above, and allowing me to manage my rig without taking any fingers away from strings. Originally Posted by destinytot
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So Horszt... did you get it.
Slurs are also an articulation, performance techniques. The location of an attack rhythmically is different from how the note is performed.
The most effective approach for developing any technique is generally to break it down into what's involved, either by yourself doing the best you can... or with help.
Generally it's always best to start at the beginning. Beat or attack location is about subdividing. Just as one subdivides to create swing feel or attacks.... you also sub divide to create feels.
Sub dividing is about breaking rhythm down to the smallest note value used. With feel it's usually in a two feel or a three or triplet feel. (or both).
This is very mechanical and the smaller your able to sub divide the beat down to.... the more ability you'll have to get rid of the mechanical feel... and develop a more natural feel.
You need this skill before you approach the next step and performance skill of playing different feels of music.
Once you develop the technical skills.... you can then apply this same concept... subdividing to performance. That is being able to play feels and grooves with different musicians.
Generally there are also patterns of where, ahead and behind the implied attack pattern or rhythm locations of the notes or chords played. Example could be, slightly behind the beat on all attacks except beat 4. This is what creates feels and grooves and locks them in. The next level of performance skills for creating grooves and feels.
Most just try and play things over and over and try and find the groove.... which is probable what you do or have been taught to do... it's not a very effective approach and generally takes most of your life etc... maybe.
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Yes, Reg, thanks.
I think the big take away from me that I wish I could tell myself ten years ago is that there is a mathematical and very clear and practicable basis for it all, and it's not all 'hippy dippy' stuff. Feel is ineffable, sure, but the building blocks of rhythm are not.
Subdividing and getting inside the basic rhythms of jazz - including quarter and eighth note triplets in particular a hugely important part of this. You have to be able to feel these in your bones at any tempo. As Reg says, it's important to be able to subdivide to the lowest common denominator to be able to lock these in and get them as accurate as you can. For example, the quarter triplet in 4/4. We count 12/8 time.
123 223 323 423
And we accent, or clap on these, while we tap the beat with the other hand:
123 223 323 423
Or, if you prefer:
1 tri plet 2 tri plet 3 tri plet 4 tri plet
Once you are locked into this grid, then you can start to focus on clearly hearing one rhythm against the other, but only then.
If you want to see this clearly demonstrated, get Jonathon Kreisberg's second video on My Music Masterclass. Both videos have loads of useful rhythmic stuff to work on.
Since I've worked on this, I am developing control over beat placement, which was always seemed a mysterious and intimidating aspect of jazz rhythm.Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2016 at 12:46 PM.
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this Originally Posted by Reg
and this... Originally Posted by christianm77
Me too, re. 10 years ago.
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Yeah, the reason these are so important is because this is so much of just basic jazz phrasing. Essentially, much of basic jazz is about "subbing" 8th note and quarter note triplets for what would otherwise be 8ths and quarters. 8th note triplets, subbed for 8ths, "rush" the phrase, creating space behind. So, you can actually start later and catch up to being "ahead" by the end of a short phrase. The same is obviously true for quarter triplets subbing for quarter notes. Of course, quarter note triplets are in-between 8ths and quarters, time-wise, so you can also use them to "slow down" 8th note phrases for bluesy "behind" sounding phrasing. This "getting ahead" and slowing back down, compressing things and then, creating more space etc, is what I hear in the Garner video linked by rintincop Originally Posted by christianm77
It's not so much a complex "feel" thing, where each beat is a certain amount behind, like what Methany or Reg are talking about, but is more about basic phrasing - subbing triplets to make the entire phrase more "behind" feeling. Originally Posted by rintincop
Anyway, in my mind, that kind of thing is much easier to learn than the every-beat-behind kind of thing. It's easily done with physical/mechanical devices. For something like this:...you can actually learn these kind of patterns, beyond your ability to actually count them, by making this 2-against-3 have a link to something kinesthetic and concrete, like pick direction, right hand fingers, or even just melodic groupings. Originally Posted by christianm77
Think about it, when you think of 8th notes, in terms of tapping your foot, or basic alternate picking, it's simple. It's not only counting, but each subdivision of the beat has a physical location as well, at least at first. Triplets are the same, if you know how to tackle them. Garner's phrasing is great, but it's very straightforward and tangible, if you know how to hear it. Great rhythm always has great organization. The organization isn't just "offbeat" or "behind" either. When you get into polyrhythms, the organization is more based on the spacial relationship between notes in the patterns than to the beat itself. It's its own organizing structure. Once broken down, it's actually much simpler to hear and understand than the more arbitrary relationship to the beat.
The thing is, listeners knows rhythmic organization when they hear it, even if they don't understand the "how's or why's". When you hear Garner and think that his phrasing is amazing, it's not because it's so loose, non-organized, or "off" from the organizing element of "the beat". Your ear likes it because it's organized at level maybe beyond your ability to understand at least in a concrete, tangible, verbal/symbolic way.
It might be cool for us to illustrate with a simple tune or melody. Systematic phrasing variations for different feels. It's cool to listen for inspiration to a dozen different recordings and all, but at some point, you want to be able to phrase things the way you want, and have actual choices, based on what you can do and understand. It's more than just arbitrarily downloading mental audio from other players. I'm honestly more often interested in playing things in ways which I've never heard before, or with tunes I've never heard before.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-04-2016 at 01:33 PM.
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I just wanted to put out there the idea that one may acquire control of a sense of time on either the micro or macro level without needing to practice set "exercises".... I'm pretty certain Sinatra didn't spend hours practicing counting out all the different ways to mathematically delay, anticipate, offset etc. He probably listened to other players who did it and it just kinda rubbed off on him. Beyond that he just probably found his way through trial and error...
The other thing is elastic time. I listen for it in players like Cannonball Adderley who can seemingly compress and expand his phrases at will. I liken it to running and jumping over hurdles. You can do it evenly, or you can improvise by varying your steps so that you mix long and short steps at will, while still managing to jump each hurdle and land cleanly. To do it you almost unconsciously fit your steps in such a way that the all important "launch" step is always perfectly placed. If you transcribe Cannon, it's not unusual to find 11, 13 or even 15 notes where you'd expect 12.
So, just as there are ways to intuit harmonic or melodic resolution, many players with a natural sense of time seem to be able to "concertina" their phrasing so that they land convincingly on the goal part of the bar their aiming for, not just the down beats. Most of us develop a feel for where the "one" is, even when we're being rhythmically ambivalent or obscure. However the ability to always know what it feels like to land strong, rushed or stretched phrases on say, the up beat of 3, I just think the best way to "train" for that ability is to just be audacious and risk taking for long enough that you instinctively know, not just where every part of the bar always is, but how to shoehorn any number of notes between where you are at a given moment and the goal beat.
So yeah, as well as being on or behind the beat, and being able to cross accent in different subdivisions, having that "elastic" sense of time further brings our playing closer to resembling things like dancing or speech, ie, things that we can do on a purely intuitive level....
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I'd certainly agree re. Sinatra and company, but he came up in a time when all of popular, folk and religious music was heavily infused with compound meters. Honestly, most non-musician, crappy-singing, movie actors from the jazz era had much better vocal phrasing than any singers in the modern era, outside of actual professional musicians, and they did so with very loose orchestral accompaniments. Most pedestrian, non-musicians of the time could probably do the same. People just can't pick up phrasing based on subdivisions of the beat which they've never heard before. We just don't have as much of it in modern music. Originally Posted by princeplanet
It's absolutely possible to grow up in the period from the 60's onward and basically have no concept of compound meters. I'd say that if you didn't grow up listening to jazz and have no feel for basic 12/8 or 6/8 you're going to have to do something, whether that's actual exercises or just playing a lot in that compound meter. Billie and Lester aren't just "loose". It all has a basis in time.
I've just heard too many players who have played and listened to jazz for decades, who can't basically phrase things in a way that sounds like it's in time. I'd guess that those struggling individuals are also more likely to be guitarists or singers who never studied music, especially compound meters.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-04-2016 at 02:43 PM.
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Yea Prince... that is another aspect of using time, more so from the solo or improv etc.. And I totally agree, I've always been fearless when playing basically because I've always had almost perfect time. The expanding or compressing a phrase or rhythmic figure to spatially fit within a set or established amount of time or beats.
But that is a very advanced skill and generally comes much later. You can use that skill to help build and lock in feels by using with organization.... strong and weak approach... or weak - strong or whatever pattern you apply or naturally play.
Somewhat like Form... A A B A etc... call and answer, Tonic/ Dominant etc... Again when practicing the technique... I believe one needs to be aware of what their trying to do and what is involved.... again the boring mechanical approach in the beginning. Of course if you were Cannonball... there might be much less of the boring beginnings. But I know I went through the boring approach... and it pays off later. Not just in improve, but as a rhythm section player, you develop the skills to create energetic and exciting music, if you want to.
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Shorter video
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Doesn't open for me... Originally Posted by christianm77
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How about this?
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