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Hi everyone.
Listening back to recordings of gigs is one of the ways I work out what I want to practice. One consistent strain I notice is that there are aspects of my playing I would call untidy - for example:
- poor technical execution
- bad timing on one or two notes due to fluffed technique
- a rhythmic weakness in lines - not out of time exactly - just lacking in intensity in certain lines
- poor timing due to striking the strings too forcefully
- letting the brain get in the way - 'hey I should insert this cool lick I've been practicing' ... FAIL!
The things that bug me most are small, localised timing inaccuracies. On the whole I believe I have decent-ish time in general, and work on rhythm a lot, but these problems remain. I am trying to diagnose why...
I would say that in terms of harmony, changes playing and language, I am reasonably happy.
Now, these are issues I can recognise on the gig as they happen. They are also not so prevalent on every gig, although there are usually a few things that annoy me here and there.
It's something I am keen to fix, as I would say that I am happy with the way 85% of my playing is sounding, but I feel that I should be able to address these loose ends, and tidy up my playing.
- Is this something other people have encountered?
- What advice would you give on addressing these issues either singly or all together?
- Or is it simply a natural by-product of the learning process - you will always hear things to work on?Last edited by christianm77; 07-19-2016 at 08:46 AM.
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07-19-2016 08:39 AM
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Interested in other's takes as well on this, as I'm in similar technical checkup mode, ( but nowhere in your ballpark actually).
I've really been trying to break down into smaller component parts any line which gives me problems, rather than just practice it more. It's actually shocking, among other things, how much better, technically, recently-learned material is than stuff which I learned as an undisciplined kid. dusted off some old unused pentatonic fingerings, for example, and they're just awful. Having to kind of rebuild that. I actually play much more "difficult" things better. So, I know what the problem is.
It's pretty cool that you have recordings to work from. What I've always heard from others is that you: take the passage, play it at increasing speed until it breaks down, and see what technical aspects manifest as your "default" when things get "too fast". Then, you have a better idea of what to address.
I don't know. It's certainly not me doing the analysis on that kind of thing. Like I say, I'm interested in real players perspectives on this as well. Thanks for keeping it "real". Honestly, I'd be very happy to play as well as you do when you're playing "poorly". :-)Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-19-2016 at 09:02 AM.
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I guy I used to know said that the difference between your good nights and your off-nights is mostly in your head.
For quite a while I made a practice of recording everything - practices and gigs - and giving copies to the members of the group. It really helped to speed up the continuous improvement process. It also highlighted how small some of the things that bother us really are in comparison with groove or feel or pocket or whatever. The whole is (or should be) greater than the sum of the parts: that said, some of the parts do need some work....
Totally get the problem with bright ideas. I just start thinking "why don't I try this", which more often than not, doesn't; or, even worse, "hey that sounded pretty good" which is invariably and immediately followed by a trainwreck. Like the man said: "learn all you can, and then forget it."
Or at least try not to trip over your own feet.
To be on the safe side, I play sitting down.
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I feel like I could have written those paragraph myself.
Originally Posted by christianm77
But I tell myself: we are what we are, and we sound like we sound. The longer I play, the more I become aware of little things I used to be clueless about, the more I work on them, and the better I play. So day-to-day differences/mistakes are really secondary: on my best night, I'm a tiny little bit better than on my worst. In both cases, I'm much worse than I was in my last good practice when no one else was listening. But I can hear the difference between last week and 3 years ago, and in the end that is what counts.
My own take is that the biggest difference day-to-day often comes down to how much I enjoyed myself while playing. The more fun it was (most often measured by how in synch the whole band is) the better the overall sound is, which translates into playing with confidence, which smooths out lots of timing and other issues, and leaves more room for expressiveness and "creativity" (whatever that means). Conversely, if I play with less experienced players, or for some reason we don't connect well (e.g. when the bass and drums aren't in synch) and I have to deal with keeping it together, my own playing suffers.
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I think it is a natural by product, like you said. If you listen back to your recordings habitually, it helps sometime to listen back after a while again. You will see a bigger picture, and you will appreciate yourself more.
Time-related clams are the ones that driving me crazy usually. And yes, its poor technique, plus running out of ideas and stumbling. But mostly technique. I noticed so many times when i go back to my wrist on the bridge, pinky on the pickguard right hand style my timing and flow become so much better. And yet for some weird reason i keep forcing Gypsy technique on myself, when clearly it doesnt work. I can live with dodgy notes i hit, but if my timing is off I get depressed.
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Awareness is key.
As you practice, be aware of the quality of your playing.
Play through a tune: melody, comp, solo. Listen.
Then grade your playing on a scale of 1 to 5, 5 being perfection, 1 being very poor.
You will automatically improve with this continuous grading.
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Interesting topic. After recently finishing an interesting book on music practice where there was a lot of emphasis put on practising very slow, very aware and making sure your technique is totally correct , I wonder if you could device a plan using a metronome and see if there is a point of slowing down where you can correct the problems - then it's just a question of practice to bring it up to speed. That's the theory anyway.
Personally I have major challenges with losing a good portion of technique when performing vs what I have in the practice room so this is a topic of interest for me. Playing more legato and trying different fingerlings has been somewhat productive.
Seems like guys like Wes somehow developed a certain relaxed ease with their technique and time feel, i always feel better about my playing trying to emulate Wes or Grant Green.
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Some really great posts here, here are a few of my thoughts. Part of my practice routine is slow improvising. If a full tempo tune is normally played mostly in eighth notes I'll take the tempo down to half and play mostly eighth notes so that it feels like I'm playing in slow motion. I aim to navigate the changes and make good musical sense fully concentrating on the line I'm creating. I believe that this combined with working on technique (currently I work on intervallic sequences aiming to explore all possible combinations) makes playing at full speed a little more fulfilling. So much is to do with timing not just maintaining a steady tempo but also phrasing coherently in relation to the harmonic rhythm, lots of metronome work can help.
PS dmorash what was the title of the book you read?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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[QUOTE=Iain Carleton;674484]
PS dmorash what was the title of the book you read? QUOTE)
The practice of practice. There is a website relating to it:
https://thepracticeofpractice.com/
PS.
It sounds like you are already applying one of the principal points - practice slow enough to get it correct so that you are not inadvertently ingraining poor playing as a habit. Keep in mind that that does not just refer to physical technique but could refer to phrasing, poor note choice, timing etc. The book is not jazz specific, just practice specific, and improvisers would have to bear that in mind, since for instance a classical musician could focus much more on how to play whereas an improviser would have to focus on not just how to play but what to play and when.
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For me, overthinking, lack of ideas, and poor tecquique are the byproducts of insufficient internalization and the need to always strive to make the instrument a second skin, to be able to know exactly where to go and what to do without thinking about it .
It is a Pierre problem, for those of us who remember that guy on these boards .
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Listening to yourself is important. Even transcribing yourself can be interesting (if a bit tedious..)
Somehow I feel that we talk a lot about good ears when it comes to harmony and melody but very often not to rhythm, and I have certainly noticed that my ears have become better over the years, and I started to train my students in this as well.
We probably all have issues with listening to our own playing and those issues are standing in the way of getting information from the recordings, but recording is still the best way to measure timing. Probably also the best measure when it comes to things like interaction, flow and structure of the solo etc.
Jens
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Hello all. I haven't been here in a long while, but the last thing I said still remains. I've found it's ALL about phrasing. I've had to deal with these issues for quite awhile. And yes, we're all different, have different hands, minds and creative intelligence. But FOR ME it's about how you put your phrases together. This means having the ideas FIRST. But working on time or technique is just too imprecise. It doesn't tell me anything. There's a LOT that goes into playing something in time. And there are myriad reasons why one's time can go south. There are numerous ways to play a note or phrase. Direction of the pick, firmness or attack of the picking hand, slides, bends, pulls hammers. But mostly it's hearing the phrases clearly and articulating them the way you want.
And that is why, I believe, practicing improv slowly is so important. The details are where the music lies. Rough technique. Yes but what does that MEAN? Bad time - OK, but what does that mean? Loud, soft, accent this note causatively, ghost that one. Be aware where your phrases are in the bar. Count when you play every once in awhile. Know if you're anticipating or beginning the phrases on the down beat. I'm trying to force myself, for instance, to start my phrases more on the downbeat. Especially playing fast tempos. I find I can confuse my bandmates by playing fast and starting on the and of four. I THINK so anyway.
So my suggestion would be if you're working on a line or improv in general hear how you want it to sound. Maybe think classic bop sax players. Get THAT sound in your head. For me a lot of guitar players just don't have the "right" kind of phrasing. Sorry, that's just me. We have to fight the instrument. The lines should just flow musically, rhythmically. Take it slow with a metronome. Use all the tools to get it right. Fluffed technique is about not really being confident in the knowledge of what you're doing. Brain farts. Maybe too much attention on the changes or worry about the tempo or content or fingering or picking. As long as that's where your attention is going, you're going to have brain farts and flurffs.Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-23-2016 at 12:03 PM.
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Practice your picking technique with a metronome, and without an amplifier. Devote a good 20% of your practice time to practicing improvisation -- hearing unique lines and getting them out on the fly.
And yes, you'll always hear things that need work. We're our own worst critics.
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i like HR's line here - nice to hear from you man
to phrase something really well it has to be really easy to play physically
lots of the bits that don't come out quite in time for me involve the pinky and or string changes in the wrong places that no amount of work is going to rectify
i've only recently realized that as well as composing nice ideas i have to find really easy ways to play them on the guitar and reject all the ways that i can't execute in a genuinely relaxed way
everything good in jazz sounds relaxed
there is no way to sound relaxed without actually being relaxed (so you're hearing everything easily and your neck, arm, forearm, wrist, fingers are relaxed too)
i'm nowhere near this - but i feel strongly that i know how to get to it (eventually)
and the ultimate test of whether you can play your ideas in a genuinely relaxed way is to play them at or close to the speed of light
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07-23-2016, 02:25 PM #15destinytot Guest
+1 on hello to Henry
, on recording (for self-observation) and on relaxation - which I feel is mental/attitudinal, and from which (I think) 'right'/appropriate graceful physical tone and energy follow.
I'm beginning to feel that counting may impede expression, but I'm not sure. I've noticed - in performance (albeit playing 'background' music') - that when I 'inhabit' (with my whole being) what I'm trying to play, not only is the experience pleasurable but the concept of 'mistakes' and the dreaded 'iron grip' (and other attendant physical tension/blockages) are eliminated.
I feel this has to do with confidence - partly from knowing my repertoire, and partly from belief in 'jazz' as an ideal - but I find it to be terribly fragile.
However, the last thing I want to be is brash or brittle; I'd rather be sensitive - and flexible enough to respond to circumstances that threaten vulnerability. I feel I'm advantaged as a singer, because the human voice is literally 'telling' (and perhaps sets the bar).
Tidying up - 'housekeeping' (for me) - necessarily involves the whole person, but biomechanics becomes the 'business end' when it comes to musical expression on the guitar.
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Thank you! And hello back! Originally Posted by destinytot
+1 on hello to Henry, on recording (for self-observation) and on relaxation - which I feel is mental/attitudinal, and from which (I think) 'right'/appropriate graceful physical tone and energy follow.
I'm beginning to feel that counting may impede expression, but I'm not sure. I've noticed - in performance (albeit playing 'background' music') - that when I 'inhabit' (with my whole being) what I'm trying to play, not only is the experience pleasurable but the concept of 'mistakes' and the dreaded 'iron grip' (and other attendant physical tension/blockages) are eliminated.
Yes, I must stress taking one thing up at a time. I almost never count. But very recently as my attention went more to articulating each beat I just started unconsciously started counting. For fast tempos it might mean just visualizing ONE coming up on the fast moving freeway or each four or eight bar phrase. Relax and let go. The goal is to not be inundated with the toolbox, but to master each element of of it one tool at a time. Like when I say I don't actively THINK when I play, but I had to have spent a long time thinking -- learning the changes so I don't have to think about that or where the nots are on the fretboard. It's all about one step at a time. For me and my students - it seems to still work and be common.
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07-23-2016, 03:34 PM #17destinytot Guest
Flow/in the zone etc... truth and beauty prevail:
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Too much focus on mechanics, counting, scales, modes, etc.
Too much detail. The brain cannot think of all those things while playing musically. It is too much.
It's ok to practice something particular in PRACTICE but to concern yourself with all these things while playing musically is going to bring poor results.
Your focus should on playing melodically. As Henry said to create pleasant phrasing.Last edited by Drumbler; 07-23-2016 at 08:04 PM.
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Exactly! ^^^ That's why it's called practice. But you have to have been able to do it to master it so you no longer have to do it. One of those things that should be mastered and tucked in your tool chest. Then actual PLAYING can be intuitive.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-24-2016 at 12:21 AM.
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Here is how I concentrate on rhythm only, and not worry about note choices, chords, voicings. This is the best thing I have found that works for me and I am noticing some improvement.
I try to follow dizzy Gillespie's one cardinal rule: "I fill my bar lines up with rhythms ".
So, I try to scat out rhythms without thinking at all about note choices, pitches or voicings. And then try to play those scatted rhythms on the guitar with what ever voicings, note choices, pitches I can find.
( of course I spent a crap load of time on the instrument and fingerboard--and yes, probably not nearly what many of you have done, because you've been playing for far more decades that I have-- yet, still, I feel like I have internalized all my scales , chords , harmonizations, intervals, dyads , et al to at least a sufficient level where I can try to do something with them without thinking. )
The point is to utilize the thinking and practice time working out and Scatting through various rhythms and Emulate it on the instrument with whatever voicings the notes are available., In and improvisatory way.
Just completely forget about, what note over what chord nonsense and concentrate on rhythms, feel, time, time-feel, accents , polyrhythms ( mainly two against three, three against four, and for against five ).
This is the next step in my development and practice, after spending a crap load of time on tunes, fingerboard study, chords , voicings, Etc.
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i think probably the best single exercise for bop soloing is trying to play straight eighths through all the changes
doing this at 250ish (donna lee on aebersold all bird for example) is just beyond my reach. its interesting because when i manage to relax physically more i get little floods of success - little bursts of fluidity and continuity of thought - magic. the idea of being able to do it consistently is very very appealing - not to say mesmerizing. i can do it pretty well at 200 - and that is pretty exciting itself.
so this is really the opposite of what has just been said.
and i think that you just have to generate constant harmonic motion - you have to be making changes happen constantly in your line (probably with a density and frequency considerably greater than the written changes of the tune) - if you are to play with rhythmical conviction (in a bop style). you need harmonic motion forwards in order to generate rhythmical drive. you can't get the rhythmical excitement out of nowhere - it comes out of the frickin' harmony!!
i don't want to play like this - but i'm convinced that its what you have to be able to do if you are going to play with real relaxation and rhythmical conviction.
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I think some have it easy some hard. I know a few people who never have struggle too much with keeping it on the tracks without even having to use the metronome. But I had god awful timing. Stuff that felt right for me was just floating and also lazy in the worst way when listened afterwards.. or by any other people. So, 2 bad things at once - no technical issues there btw. It took quite a while to really starting to take the problem seriously. But fortunately the comments started to work. So I went nuts for a while and here's what I did that helped me the most:
Whenever I needed something to come out right and snappy, I put the metronome at 200ish(-+30), ticking on 2.&4., straight feel. And often played one single thing for a hour. If needed something to work well on a recording, then I did that for 2 or 3 hours even. One single thing for 3 hours, can you imagine? And those things were not difficult really. The technical part was not a problem. Most often it was 2-4 bars suff with some syncopation in them. It wasn't a numb practice because I really needed them to sound superb for gigs&recordings so that kept me motivated. Also when it started to come out right, then it felt about the best thing that was there to do.. instead checking youtube or some other crap. So it worked and the comments were "well done" by a real honest and accurate friend.
This mania lasted for a few years and that gave me the hm.. idea how a good timing should feel and got rid of the "laziness". The "floatiness" still happens sometimes. Probably more than I think though.. Now I don't have it perfect but its mostly fine. And gets just better bit by bit. And I feel confident that I can handle them important lines and licks just fine if really needed to be super sharp.. up to a certain level I almost never practice without a metronome or a nice backing track anymore.
Yeah um, this was like an essay about me but thought it might be worth posting this because you know, my timing was just incredibly horrible back then.. I've not done something crazy with jazzy solos yet cuz I just started a while ago and no negative comments so far. *knocks on wood*
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I'll say this about that then I'll keep my mouth shut. The above, AS AN IMPROV ETUDE is cool. BUT that's not phrasing. Bop is all about phrasing. Rhythmic and melodic cells, playing the corners. That's more bop. Endless stream of lines is a cool exercise but you can quickly get sour and it can -- for me - be harmful to the end of hearing and playing meaningful lines. I mean it's cool. Certain period Martino and I love Martino, but. I think it's more about start, stop, long, short, space, mass, fast, slow, behind, ahead, slurred, picked, hard, soft, rhythmic-arhythmic, dot, dot, dash. That's just me. Go for what works.
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I think back to when I was kid, playing swift, crisp and clean rock/blues riffs. I'd spend days on the same handful of riffs until they were so much a part of me, I couldn't switch them off at night in my head. I'd wake up in the morning and they were still in my head. It was amazing how much mileage you can get in rock/blues with just a handful of patterns learned this way.
Many years later, I'm struggling to keep some form with the hundreds of ideas in all kinds of Jazz situations. Problem is that with so many ideas/patterns/devices etc (many of them relatively recently acquired), there's no time (nor inclination) to do the 1000's of reps for every single idea, let alone possible combination of ideas. That's why I've always said that mastering Jazz improv is about 1000 times more difficult than mastering rock/blues. Of course, the great players had a large vocabulary at their disposal with total authority and confidence. CC, Django, Wes, Martino, Benson, Metheny etc could whip out and safely land or connect seemingly hundreds of ideas with the same 100% certainty with respect to phrasing that say Clapton could with his dozen or so simple ideas. Lotsa practice? Or lotsa talent? Gotta be both, right?
Dizzy used to say that to play a phrase with authority, you don't just hear it in your head, you hear it screaming in your head! I also remember that he claimed to have learned everything in Bb for years before venturing out to other keys, which probably helped him to burn the sounds in to his mind better.... For me, I know I haven't made a particularly challenging phrase my "bitch"
until it flies from my fingers like those simple blues riffs used to when I was a young gun. I really hate tentative jazz guitar phrasing with that wimpy "plinkety plink" (lack of) attack that most players seem to like. It's like listening to someone speak who stutters and mumbles. Mind you, listening to someone speak with machine gun monotony gets boring real quick as well. I try to modulate my phrases like the way that interesting speech (pitch, rhythm and dynamics) can hold a listener's ear.
And yeah, listening to recordings of myself is the best way to remind me that I fall way short of all these lofty ambitions!
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
i think you are exactly right. i recommend practicing straight eighths - which joe pass first turned me on to - as a way of learning how to do the very thing you express so well here.
as things stand with me - gaps are more often about me trying to catch a breath and work out where the hell i am than they are about cool musical effects. so the point of the straight eighths for me is really not to sound like e.g. martino etc. - but as an improv. etude.
i find that i 'ghost' some notes and emphasize others - and that this establishes a kind of background/foreground thing even though i'm trying to play through all the changes
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