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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
EDIT: by which I mean to say - this stuff didn't interest me for a long time. I came around to it when it felt right. Maybe for you it won't and you will go a different way.Last edited by christianm77; 07-05-2016 at 05:32 PM.
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07-05-2016 05:17 PM
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Well ... You're right of course but it's not anyone's job to be on this forum (except mark?) and yet here we are.
truthfully I was joking about the convincing ... But honestly it sounds to me like adding more than the one chromatic note is not a bebop scale anymore - no? What do those exercises look like and how'd you come to them? Curiosity.
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barry harris doesn't use the term bebop scale; he has these "added note rules" and often times you end up playing what has been dubbed the bebop scale by someone else along the way. i'm willing to make a 5 min video to demonstrate some of the stuff. let me know if that would help and what specifically you'd like to see. i'm not as experienced as christian, but im willing to make one if it might help
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Originally Posted by JensL
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A three added note C dominant scale would look like this from C to C
C B Bb A G F E Eb D Db C
or it could be:
C A Bb A G F E Eb D Db C
Loads of variations possible
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Part of the problem here is how we often reduce tendencies to a normative code of practice. It reminds me of Adolph Marx, a 19th century musical theoretician who used Beethoven's sonatas to demonstrate the structural aspects of that form. Problem is Beethoven's sonatas, especially the later ones, are almost a refutation of the standard model.
Similarly, we can check out Parker for instances of 'bebop scales' and chord tones on strong beats without acknowledging the many instances where he plays with our expectations. That's not to deny the contributions of someone like Barry Harris. In fact, I love witnessing the glint in BH's eye when he lays dissonant harmonies on students to show the implications of borrowing notes from the diminished scale. My hunch is that he is lot more playful with all this than many of his followers.Last edited by PMB; 07-05-2016 at 09:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I was talking about this: "I don't recall ever hearing or seeing the idea of learning to feel the 1 and the 3. " He had a speech on learning how to feel the song where the chords change and dancing on fast bebop when he was young and the conclusion to that was to feel the music on 1 and 3.
I think it makes a lot of sense though I don't have his experience with dancing to fast bebop.
Jens
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I think that is a much stronger concept that reflects the music better because it does not get mixed up with keys and scales. Nobody plays a Rhythm Changes in F bebop.
The "chromatic note" between Bb and A that would be Bb C A also sounds great
Jens
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Originally Posted by JensL
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For those interested there is a book of Ramon Ricker, vol 4 of his improvisation series , devoted to the Melodic Minor Scale. The scale is played with one note added between 5th and 6th degree.
(Look at the last line of post 39 by princeplanet:
For G7alt try Abm6 .......Ab Bb B Db Eb (E) F G )
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Originally Posted by JensL
I happen to love Barry's playing. A lot! And it's entirely possible that he talks about FEEL in person, and I just wasn't there for those classes. And maybe he has books that I haven't read where he discusses it. But the conversations in these threads always revolve around the theory. And frankly, the theory is very basic to me. Anyone who doesn't understand it but can count to 4 and understands the diatonic and chromatic musical alphabet should be able to sit down and in under 30 minutes have their mind wrapped around it.
But that will not be enough to then jump on a bandstand for a performance and be able to keep up with a 200-300bpm bop tune when the drummer is messing with the rhythms, the pianist is comping in a syncopated way, a form is flying by, 8th notes are whizzing by, etc. All we have then is feel.
I was able to study briefly with an incredible drummer. His swing feel and time are just ridiculous... but he's one of the guys at the forefront of pushing the boundaries and limits of odd times, metric modulations, polyrhythms, etc in my opinion. He can take the most complex rhythm in the most insane odd time and write it out on the board showing where the subdivisions fall and circling this and counting that... and he can literally explain it to a 5 year old in a way where that kid will understand the theory of it. But I guarantee you, that understanding will not be enough to be able to feel that rhythm and just jump up and start improvising freely over a standard in that odd time. I've tried... and have seen others try. And it's brutal. That's where the theory only takes one so far and feel has to come in. And he has specific practices to help others feel those rhythms so that they can be utilized. Walking, clapping, tapping on your chest or legs, humming basic melodies while doing all that, etc. Physical things to develop feel.
That's why I'm thrilled to know Barry is utilizing some type of physical movement to help others feel this stuff. And THAT is what I was asking about. How does he teach the ability to feel it... not to count it. Any chance you'll post a video of you doing his dance?!?!?!?!?!
I for one would love to see!
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Originally Posted by JensL
My approach was just to learn to feel the beats before they get there. Then, who really cares how many notes you're adding? I add as many as I want or need to get to the note I want to land on when it feels right.
It would be like if I invited you over to my apartment and said, okay, turn left when you get out of the elevator. Now, if you take large strides, count out 17 steps and I'm the door on the right. If you take medium sized strides, take 21 steps. If you take small strides, take 28 steps. If you turn out of the elevator and pivot onto your left foot (since you're turning left), you can subtract 1 step. If you turn out by pivoting on your right, you're a step farther away and you need to add another step. If you're this tall vs this short, add or subtract this or that. I'm sure we could come up with some system that would quite accurately help everyone find my apartment this way.
Or, I could just tell you my apartment number... and when you get there you get there. That's just my view and what I've found works for me, much faster and more effectively then anything else.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
If you talk about theory it's much easier and there is much less taste involved.
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Jens
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Yes.
Your teacher knows what he's talking about.Last edited by Stevebol; 07-06-2016 at 06:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
or the inversion:
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
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I gave up on bebop scales, just never made sense to me. Don't really mind letting it go. Still can't play bop, but its not like I could play bop when I was using the scales anyway.
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Originally Posted by pushkar000
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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Mr Beaumont was quoting George Clinton. Classic Funkadelics.
Great thread everybody!
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Bullshit is a great fertilizer.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Charlie Garnett - Franken Tele
Yesterday, 08:52 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos