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I notice that many articles on Jazz improv default to (strongly) suggesting Lydian in place of Ionian for a tonic major, and Dorian in place of Aeolian for Tonic Minor.
There is no right or wrong, obviously, just personal preference. I know that many of you will use both (as well as others) depending on context, but if it's a Standard type tune with plenty of functional 2-5-1's, do you default to #4 for tonic Maj and #6 for tonic minor?
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06-14-2016 07:42 AM
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(minor tonic I can hear either way)
but no , my guilty secret
I still can't hear the tonic #11 thing
or 'Lydian as Tonic'
still sounds wrong to me
I blame Wayne Shorter !Last edited by pingu; 06-14-2016 at 08:01 AM.
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natural 4ths get such a bum rap, don't they?
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I can hear it but it still sounds like a "special effect" to me.but no , my guilty secret
I still can't hear the tonic #11 thing
or 'Lydian as Tonic'
still sounds wrong to me
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In literal sense, I can not either, but too many tunes written in Ab feel like they are to be played in Eb. Nothing to do with that "avoid the 4th" thing, though. I blame it on piano players having "bending notes" envy.
Originally Posted by pingu
However, I think that "if it's C, play it from G" approach is more suited to blues and rock. If you play Jazz, IMO, you should be able to play it as written, while Jazzing it along the way so to sound as acceptable as possible.Last edited by Vladan; 06-14-2016 at 09:35 AM.
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I'm not following you.... can you elaborate? Originally Posted by Vladan
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Here's my A tonic minor scale. What is it?
A B C D E F F# G G# A
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I think the melodic aspect may be the gateway drug on "lydian as tonic". The #11 as lower tension for 5 is pretty natural. When you consider "what to play against the 5th of the tonic chord", the nat 5 seems almost useless. (It certainly has it's place with re. to the 3rd, I'd think) I guess, at some point, you maybe have to ask "what are you implying harmonically with that as well"? I still think basically of that #11 as "a note to play against the 5", but I'm a jazz infant anyway.
I will say this: I think that we generally don't just "add notes" or think in 12 pitches all of the time. Usually, when I play/think #11, it's actually replacing the nat.5, for the moment, even if I'm just lazily thinking, "6-#4-5"....outside of any scale-thought-context. When I'm actually aware, it seems like I'm more mentally switching pitch clusters. I'd bet it's usually about 7 or 8 notes max, for most anyone playing trad. functional music, in terms of what they're actually thinking/hearing. Not that they can't hear other possibilities in each moment, but I don't think we mentally organize in terms of 12 notes at all times. I have to think that reg is onto something when he says his thing about rhythm-section-comping instrumentalists' responsibility for being aware of what is actually implied (harmonically) by the other melodies (whether head, soloist, bass etc).
Sorry. Probably somewhat OT. Just rambling.
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Haha! That's not fair, that's the "Every" Minor Scale! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I think a lot of the old, non-BS guys would just call that "just minor". You've got natural, melodic, harmonic... But that's "just minor". :-) Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
being silly...
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Not talking about using #11 as aux, neighbour or passing note etc... I mean, if you were hypothetically asked to use the diatonic scale with no chromatics, do you "hear" Lydian or Ionian for the tonic chord at the end of a 2-5-1 cadence? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Yeah. I'd say I'm starting to, but like I was (poorly) trying to say, the entry point was kind of as the result of the "aux, neighbour or pasisng note etc.". More than just a passing note, I begin to hear it as replacing nat. 5. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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In regard to OP, one observation, chord symbol Am6 would imply Dorian, while Aeolian would be Amb6 (inv of FMaj7),
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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Sure, but I'm talking about when people imply Am6 when they see Am7 as tonic. Originally Posted by Vladan
Can't say I've ever seen a written mb6 chord in my travels, but then again, I don't get out much
....
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James Bond theme? #5, not b6 tho' Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sure, but I'm talking about when people imply Am6 when they see Am7 as tonic.
Can't say I've ever seen a written mb6 chord in my travels, but then again, I don't get out much ....
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m7 sounds weak as a tonic to me...it floats...doesn't sound like a resolution point. Obviously, this can work well in some situations... Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sure, but I'm talking about when people imply Am6 when they see Am7 as tonic.
Can't say I've ever seen a written mb6 chord in my travels, but then again, I don't get out much ....
To the OP, simple test--write a line for a maj7 chord that ends on 4 and one that ends on #4. Play a maj7 chord, play your lines (if you can do this at the piano, all the better.)
you'll hear it.
Also, experiment a bit...play a root position Cmaj7 and end your line on an F in the same octave...then up an octave...hmmm...try the same thing with the F#...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 06-14-2016 at 11:26 AM.
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If you ear has difficulty getting away from maj/min functional harmony... then using Modal concepts, or changing the notes which create tonality and how those note create function by reactions to each other. Then every thing still has the basic reference etc...
But to prince's point, using Lydian and dorian is one of the other major and relative minor relationships with tonal implications and guidelines etc...
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Just wanted to point out to unaware by-passer that what you correctly name, scale-wise, natural 6 and #6 in your OP do not correspond to 6s in chord symbols system. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sure, but I'm talking about when people imply Am6 when they see Am7 as tonic.
Can't say I've ever seen a written mb6 chord in my travels, but then again, I don't get out much ....
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Well, I can hear that one says "no" and the other says "maaaybe.." , good thing I tend not to write or improvise lines that end on any kind of 4th against a tonic major! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Although, I must say I use straight 4ths all the time and don't get the "avoid" note connotation...
Funny, I've been listening to Webern, Berg, Schoenberg, Hindemith etc for ages so my ears have always accepted non trad concepts, but LCC as applied to much Jazz always sounded "forced" to my ears. Pretty sure it's just me...
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To my ears, if I play, say, a descending line and end on #4 in the lower octave, it sounds really cool. 4 sounds like a mistake.
In the upper octave, neither is a satisfying note to hang on, to my ears.
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Yeah, I remember being confused, early in my musical life, why b6 described the Aeolian 6th when in fact in it's minor key context, it's perfectly unaltered! Took a while to accept that it's all referenced to the Major key. Unfair bias! Originally Posted by Vladan
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Are you just passing thru 4th or trying to sit on it. It's sound wants to resolve and that's why people say it need special handling. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Come to think of it, for such a cool sound, why doesn't this chord get used much? Seems to me that a lot of the best composed Jazz I've heard is actually Hollywood "Noir" Jazz (Spy, Detective, Sleaze etc) that probably never got performed live... Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
James Bond theme? #5, not b6 tho'
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I never sit on it, it's always part of a sequenced pattern or an aux to another note... Originally Posted by NoReply
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Tonic Minor is always Dorian in jazz (or melodic min)
Major - depends on the tune. Not for functional tunes like standards on my opinion. But anything with non functional changes, inner urge for instance...
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