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I remember reading that Joe Pass thought about minor that way (chromatic above the fifth). Can someone confirm or disprove that?
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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06-14-2016 12:18 PM
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I know you're probably sick of repeating yourself, but can you point to one of your prior posts (or threads) that elaborate a little more? Originally Posted by Reg
As for your own playing, would you say that you're quite at home with #4 against tonic major in Standard tunes? Do you always use it instead of nat 4, or do you use both? Does your usage observe any "rules", or is it just a feel thing these days?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
I see it a lot in more "modern" compositions. It's basically a major chord in first inversion with a 9.
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Yeah, seems that way (re min key). Minor key tunes are certainly in the minority (ahem, sorry..), but surely there are many examples where melodies, or even improvised lines, imply Aoelian rather than Dorian? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Sure, but by using the b6 you are creating movement over the chord - much like you are if you use a 4 on a major. Other notes incidentally - 2 and 7, depend on context and what model of harmony you subscribe to. But pretty much no-one thinks a b6 is a note you can sit on over a minor chord. Originally Posted by princeplanet
(Actually in earlier jazz styles sitting on a b7 sound kind of weird too, more so than 7... But that's a whole can of worms.)
In contrast - jazz the major 6 is heard as a blending sound with the minor triad, and this has been the case for a long time.
Confusion (IMO) results from people confusing functional use of scales in harmonic music with the freer, extension based approach of CST. The two things are different....
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no but I think like that ... Originally Posted by KirkP
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I don't "hear" the #11 as a scale tone over Imaj7 but I like the sound when I work in a min triad or min7 chord into a melody built on the 7th degree of that Imaj7 chord, so perhaps in theory no, but in application, yes. Does that make sense to anyone else? In other words, a Lydian scale doesn't sound natural (correct) to my ear, but slipping in #11 in the context of a (non scalar based)melodic line sounds good.
Last edited by whiskey02; 06-15-2016 at 01:44 PM.
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That's because a #4 is not the same thing as a #11 :-) Originally Posted by whiskey02
Warne Marsh two octave scales and all of that...
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Hmmm, been doing a lot of reading transcriptions of Hard Bop era players (Wes, Dex, Wynton Kelly, early Herbie, even some Bird), and it seems there was a tendency to avoid any 6th whatsoever in a lot of the lines over the tonic minor. Certainly the b6 is scarce, but the nat 6th was not as common as I expected and very rarely used as a point of rest. nat6 and #7 were sometimes seen together as part of a run near the end of the bar, but earlier in the bar it was not uncommon to also see the odd b7.
Infact, the b7 was quite common, given the predilection the hard boppers had for bluesy lines. Also, there seemed to be no hard and fast rules regarding note choices, some lines contained b7, some #7, some both (not always adjacent). But as I said, it was surprising how often 6ths of any kind were avoided. Obviously deduced from a small sample, but it does go to show that you've gotta analyse the players you like and then make up your own mind about how to handle various options. Seems to many people follow generic instructions from text books when it comes to this stuff.
Me, I'm developing ways to incorporate all the above, as well as the b6. Why? Well, for one thing, because I "hear" it for some reason, and secondly - nobody else seems to be doing it!
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Interesting. Would you then say that the minor 7th chord tones give a hard bop vibe and the minor 6th tones give more a swing era vibe? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Hmmm, been doing a lot of reading transcriptions of Hard Bop era players (Wes, Dex, Wynton Kelly, early Herbie, even some Bird), and it seems there was a tendency to avoid any 6th whatsoever in a lot of the lines over the tonic minor. Certainly the b6 is scarce, but the nat 6th was not as common as I expected and very rarely used as a point of rest. nat6 and #7 were sometimes seen together as part of a run near the end of the bar, but earlier in the bar it was not uncommon to also see the odd b7.
Infact, the b7 was quite common, given the predilection the hard boppers had for bluesy lines. Also, there seemed to be no hard and fast rules regarding note choices, some lines contained b7, some #7, some both (not always adjacent). But as I said, it was surprising how often 6ths of any kind were avoided. Obviously deduced from a small sample, but it does go to show that you've gotta analyse the players you like and then make up your own mind about how to handle various options. Seems to many people follow generic instructions from text books when it comes to this stuff.
Me, I'm developing ways to incorporate all the above, as well as the b6. Why? Well, for one thing, because I "hear" it for some reason, and secondly - nobody else seems to be doing it!
Minor 7 on tonic minor function chords sounds very out of place in Swing lines for sure. I think I move more to minor 7 sounds on later music.
I wouldn't be hugely surprised by that from the transcriptions I've done...
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Obviously, the sample is too small to make any conclusions. I'm sure many Swing era players played "bluesy" b7 against minor tonics (Don Byas? Prez?). Also, there were many Hard Boppers that probably preferred the nat 6th (Shorter, Hubbard?). Originally Posted by christianm77
If anyone has an informed opinion regarding the above, I for one would love to read it!
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Sure. More info/examples would be cool! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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No... only when the tune is modal etc.... #11 creates a little to much tension for most old standards, composed with maj/min functional harmony guidelines as basic reference.
During solos basically anything goes as long as you have the skills to set up. Forcing or if still has tension that wants to create functional movement, usually implies your not covering.
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[QUOTE=princeplanet;661366]I notice that many articles on Jazz improv default to (strongly) suggesting Lydian in place of Ionian for a tonic major, and Dorian in place of Aeolian for Tonic Minor.
Interesting thoughts from all.
Something not often discussed. is the Difference in playing a chords to line/scale/phrase with lydian for tonic.
Eg Key E Major playing a chord EMaj7#4 instead of EMaj7, being a composer,I sometimes specify no lydian chords to be played, for Tonic, (There is a reason why)
Eg if the Piece starts in Am modulates to AMaj /// then A#Maj/// to Amaj/// i say no lydian, it does not ever sound good. unless one quickly plays AMaj7 AMaj7#4 AMaj7 AMaj7, one is resolving #4 to 5
not discussed, it breaks the rhythm/flow up as one is playing perhaps extra chords cluttering the piece up.
a case of taste. it can be made to work, but in context................
The same is not true for lines/scales/phrases they can be played ie #4 over regular Maj7. a lot more freely IMO
In some of my pieces the pianist sometimes played lydian, sounding stark/odd.
And on play back, they agreed, not to be dictatorial. the lydian forces the already remote keys, to other keys.
Amaj7#4 lydian can imply Emaj,
it changes the key, yet again ( for me anyway) like the 4th note, i use it all the time, but one needs to know where it is from and where it goes to, not so much the pitch but the duration that determines whether it sounds good. Purely taste, for me identical to M7 over b7 on dominant, it sounds great, again taste and when to play.
mainly talking the head/theme here, things can become more relaxed once in improv area.
Just to say one cant just put lydian in place of Tonic major, (of course one can) there are ways of forcing it, this takes skill, also are we talking about the Tonic being the starting Tonic as opposed to a new tonic or tonics say 6-9 bars later. These things affect what can be played, No hard rules but taste, for beginners it is suggested you can play Lydian anywhere anytime in place of Maj , BS. I am generalizing here, a bit like TIMBRE affects notes.
The playing of Lydian is far easier in Melodic Minor harmony. Also a lot of lydian chords can/could be rootless altered dominants or m7b5 11 etc
some might say in jazz you can, as someone said
Garlic is great but not in cereal.
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Am I right in thinking that Lydian is often used for endings/intros? If so, are endings kind of in their own organisational category? Or maybe it's just more common to "go modal"for endings etc.? Originally Posted by Reg
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All of the above... when any chord, harmony or note sits long enough... it become modally tonic... a final. (finalis)
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