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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
See, I'm trying to simplify further, for my head. Ain't no way I'm gonna think three scales over a ii V I in C. To me, it's all about chord on chord.
I'm the world's worst piano player, but if I sit down at the keys and look at this stuff it seems very logical...
I'd also say, there are plenty of different ways to access these sounds--this is the one that's making sense to me right now.
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06-13-2016 01:51 PM
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I agree. Was just thinking that the Barry stuff seemed overcomplicated. I tend to think in terms of chords as well. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Sure. I used to think that for a long time. But nothing Barry teaches is random or overcomplicated IMO. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
But I've come around to this system for two main reasons:
a) It streamlines the harmony of bebop tunes. It turns out that most cadences are either V7-I, bVII7-I or more rarely bII7-I
b) It separates the melodic material out in such away as it can be understood separate from the progression. Rather than thinking harmonically - Dm7 or an Fmaj7 over G7 say, you are thinking of melodic lines and figures developed from the G dominant scale. The harmony used within the scale is not in fact terribly important. It's just melodies in G dominant, Bb dominant, whatever.
It's not something I can sum up in a forum post - all can say really is that I have found it really good after about a year of studying it, and I would recommend any serious student of bop to try it out for a few weeks and see if it works for them.
That said I had spent 20 years of doofing around with arpeggios and chord substitutions and so on. I was ready for a system that embraced all of this info and streamlined it.
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TBH I would probably think of that as F Fm6 Em as well, but the Barry stuff does make a lot of stuff simpler in the long run. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Anyway I'm aware I'm boring the bollocks of everyone here, so I'll go about my business :-)
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Nah, I'm not bored.
Actually, I think you're the first person who said something about the Barry Harris method that actually made sense to me, so thanks.
The other thing that I'm into right now is reduced melody...but maybe that's another thread...even though it gets me at some of the same stuff.
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Sounds interesting - start that thread baby.... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
(Actually the other thing you could use to understand the Fmaj7 Fm6 Em move is the C major6-dim scale...)
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Wait, can you play F minor over G7? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by dingusmingus
Wait, can you play F minor over G7?
Y'know, I feel like we might have had a thread on that a little while ago
I might start the reduced melody thing...that's another one I claim to be no expert on, but I'm getting lots of cool ideas from. It is decidedly NOT bebop sounding though, but I suppose with some finagling...I mean, it depends on what you hear naturally, I suppose.
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You crazy. Originally Posted by dingusmingus
Wait, can you play F minor over G7?
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TBH after five years of solid bebop, I'm quite up for other stuff. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Y'know, I feel like we might have had a thread on that a little while ago
I might start the reduced melody thing...that's another one I claim to be no expert on, but I'm getting lots of cool ideas from. It is decidedly NOT bebop sounding though, but I suppose with some finagling...I mean, it depends on what you hear naturally, I suppose.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Christianm77 Mach 2?
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"You can't go out and play a f***ing free-form jazz exploration in front of a festival crowd!" Originally Posted by joe2758
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reduced melody based improv is advocated Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Y'know, I feel like we might have had a thread on that a little while ago
I might start the reduced melody thing...that's another one I claim to be no expert on, but I'm getting lots of cool ideas from. It is decidedly NOT bebop sounding though, but I suppose with some finagling...I mean, it depends on what you hear naturally, I suppose.
by Ed Byrne
Byrne Jazz - Home
I've not studied it myself but it sounds like what you're talking about mr B ...
I'm into the whole 'less is more' thing generally ,
ie I thing thats how most things in life function
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oh hang i'll bite Originally Posted by dingusmingus
Wait, can you play F minor over G7?
re the Fmin7 over the G7
is interesting wrt Mr Bs point about
playing a half-step up from the V7 chord
cos Fmin7=Ab6. ta daaar !
also the Guide Tone Line A Ab G
is nice
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Challenge accepted. The Oddyssey it is! Originally Posted by Boston Joe
And I do mean Oddyssey and not Odyssey ;-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yea there are mistakes etc... but if you listen to source from the bottom of page... the notes are right, the chart is from the 10th memorial concert of CP's death in 65. I actually like the RB version better... go figure, but at a gig I would sight read basically any version or arrangement. I didn't compose the melody, and I wonder how many different versions were actually performed. Most of the time at pick up gigs your playing a harmony line anyway, and as long as the rhythms on... generally no problems.
It is interesting how many have this one way or it's not right approach to performing jazz live. This is the way it is... do you like yell at other performers at gigs etc...
I mean that's the reason for RB's right so at gigs we all at least start on the same version or melody.
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Right? Originally Posted by pingu
To me, the crazy thing is how different the lines I come up with are with either approach, even though they're the same note set.
Synonyms rule. I mean, synonyms are awesome.
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Interesting info. Originally Posted by Reg
Doesn't really matter if the band is reading off the same sheet, or have perhaps had a run through. But no one would read Donna Lee, and rehearsal is illegal in the UK.
It depends who you hang with, too.
The rhythms in the RB version are also different from the original/Omnibook, which would be the main problem in my book. The original recordings often have disagreement regarding pitches between the horns which you don't notice too much on the whole.
But rhythmic disagreement always sounds messy. The start of the second phrase is a particular issue in my experience.
(Also the original rhythms are way hipper IMO than those in the RB.)
In general, this stuff bothers me because a) it sounds sloppy and b) basically no-one rehearses for a straight ahead gig here so it's hard to fix (you'd be just about able fix up a session for a originals project before a record date). It's a little frustrating but I don't think it's due to bad musicianship from anyone, just lack of time and diverse, sometimes inaccurate sources.
The Real Book is a particular beef because it's taught me tunes inaccurately or at least, not in the original form. I'm finding stuff all the time - bop heads in particular... Pro bop players (in my experience) wouldn't play the RB version of heads. They would learn them straight from the recording.
I've had people (usually people whose musicianship is somewhat more developed than their people skills, shall we say) have a go at me on gigs for playing 'bad' (usually RB) changes. I haven't enjoyed it at the time, but I've learned not to take it personally, and I've learned something by it. Not all learning experiences are cuddly.
(Some are though :-))
But in general, there are better ways to get the result you want :-)Last edited by christianm77; 06-13-2016 at 08:40 PM.
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Yea it always comes down to what one thinks and yea how well one can cover. It's interesting... I can push grooves and harmony better than most, it's just what it is. I can play and get simple vanilla or modern etc... I generally just use my ears, right... it's pretty simple to play what's right if one listens. Most as you say Pro musicians have their thing... so do I, but being able to perform other players thing...is really more useful than playing your own thing at most gigs.
I mean on any given week. I'll gig with 4 or 5 different group of musicians... Most of the time...I'm covering their thing.
Sorry for using Thing... it's an easy way to imply... different players views of how music works... what sounds right etc...
I have found that good players can hear other layers of organization, and generally by their response ...would be where I would go from there. By far... most really dig it, I guess my point is It's really not about making me sounding hip etc... it's about possibilities of the music becoming something. It's pretty cool feeling to comp behind a great soloist and really help their improv go somewhere. And then of course there's just the opposite... then you take a solo, and you get vanilla, which is cool, but the possibilities become somewhat limited.
Christian... what do you mean no reads DL. I get that most would know the head etc... but man I've played the tune in all keys and different styles... in sections with some crazy versions, changes etc...
I do get the rehearsal thing, I generally never rehears unless its paid, and I still can't take it.
Getting back to targets.... It's fun to use some type of sub pattern and create different tonal or functional patterns.... the obvious being use relative maj or min of target, which opens doors for different melodic use. Or a melodic pattern like pentatonics from possible target...
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Well some people read Donna Lee out of the Real Book. It's quite an amateurish thing to do though, esp. if you are calling it. (Unless of course, it's literally the first time they've ever seen it, in which case it's a sign of professionalism - albeit not in jazz ;-)) Originally Posted by Reg
I guess I'm probably a snob, but to me there is a world of difference playing a from a chart and playing a tune you know. The difference is night and day. (I agree with Hal Galper in this, among others. You can't read, play and listen as well as you can just listen and play.) I also think about it from the audiences perspective.
It kind of doesn't matter how many times you've played it either - even I know a tune and played it 100's of times on gigs, if you put a chart in front of me for it, I'll still read it and play differently as a result... I start counting and getting interested in playing the written extensions accurately in that particular version of the changes and so on - big band mode, basically!
I aim to memorise all the music I play in originals projects too - not right away, but that's the goal.
Not that I'm downplaying the value of reading. It's a good idea to get into that, too. Necessary evil.
I'm also aware that I am speaking about my own experiences, and many people are much better readers than me so reading probably takes up much less mental energy for them. That said, these attitudes are pretty common among the good straightahead players in London, and for a reason IMO.
It's actually a really good thing in fact that I had a look at the RB chart (I literally haven't used the Real Book for years) and realised that there are differences and that I should be aware of them when playing the tune with certain categories of jazz musicians (such as less repertoire oriented players or fusion guys.)
I would rather rehearse. I love rehearsals. However, in practice people are busy.
Anyway massively off topic.Last edited by christianm77; 06-14-2016 at 02:36 PM.
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Interesting that while reading this thread, I also was reading Owens' book on Bebop. In talking about Charlie Parker, he presents some of the most recurrent "vocabulary" in Bird's playing, but then makes this observation:
Parker's solos often have an inevitability about them; they seem to have been created by a man who knew exactly where he was going and what to play next. His style seems to have internal logic and consistency ... But lying beneath the surface of most of his improvisations is another factor that helps generate the sense of tightness in his music. Typically entire phrases, and even entire choruses and groupings of choruses, are goal-oriented; they arrive on a final note that lies at the end of a lengthy stepwise descent.--Owens, Bebop, p. 35.
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Sounds like Schenker almost... Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Rudolf or Michael? Originally Posted by christianm77
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yeah right , what beat do you think the second phrase of Donna Lee should start on ?But rhythmic disagreement always sounds messy. The start of the second phrase is a particular issue in my experience.
I think its beat 4 ?
I think ive heard people start earlier than that
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Owens' charts even look Schenkerian. Originally Posted by christianm77
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