Not comfortable with big changes like all the things you are!

[mooncef]

I still struggle to improvise with standards with a lot of modulations that don't allow you to bracket a lot of mesures with a scale , "All the things you are" for instance is still a scary standard for me to improvise over especialy if i want to go about it with arpegios targeting 3rds so i wanted to know your personal aproaches with this tune , and especialy when you used to struggle with it and how you started to evolve and be very comfortable with this tune .

[joe2758]

While I think you will want to eventually start using apreggios and target notes, I don't see why you couldn't use an umbrella approach for this tune (bracket with a scale).

[joe2758]

{F-7, Bb-7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj (vi, ii, V, I, IV)} {G7, CMAJ (V, I)}{c-7, f-7, Bb7, Eb (same as first) etc

[dingusmingus]

I'm still very much a student of this music, but I tend to think functionally with key centers. So, ATTYA, is
vi-ii-V-I-IV in Ab, then ii-V-I in C, etc.

As I learn the fretboard better, I can reorient more quickly and smoothly from Ab to C, or whatever. When I first started playing these tunes, it seemed impossible to me that someone could modulate on the fly. By playing songs, practicing slowly, etc, it has become easier. (Though Moment's Notice is still kicking my butt right now!)

edit to add: the only tweak from the way the OP is discussing this: I don't think "scale" so much as "key." So, I'm generally targeting the chord tones of each chord in the key, as that chord goes by, as opposed to grabbing any old note from the scale.

[goldenwave77]

Look at what I call the "change notes"...in other words, what notes are changing from one phrase to another, and what does this imply about the harmony.

A lot of times one note can change a tonality completely...in "Just Friends" where the first notes are b b a b a, you might think of this as C major, then when the phrase ends on e flat, that implies c minor (other possibilities too, to be sure)....so no need to jump around the fret board...just play a c major phrase that uses an e then goes to an e flat.

The downside of learning arpeggio-based improv first, is that it almost directs you into thinking of ..."where is the root now...gotta go there...", and this is kind of herky jerky...rather than staying in one area of the fretbd. and then nailing the "change note".

Another e.g. is in the bridge to "Misty" where the d flat in the first phrase goes to d natural in the 2nd part....just by nailing that one change, you can play a convincing line.

In order to do this, you need to know chord tones and arpeggios without "now I find the root, and go up from there"...if you have to do this, you don't know them well enough.

If you're learning a tune, and you have a lead sheet, find the change notes, and sketch them in "d flat goes to d natural"...(use symbols and an arrow) and jot it in over the chord change.

If you think about it, a lot of very challenging tunes (ATTYA, Stella by Starlight) have simple heads...but if you don't get what is going on, "behind the scenes" harmonically, then it's hard to play a convincing line against it.....often, just looking at the melody notes doesn't tell all of the story. "Autumn in New York" and "April in Paris" are 2 other tunes that come to mind...pretty simple heads placed against more intricate harmonies.

[joe2758]

great point golden wave. knowing your key signatures will make that a lot easier

[goldenwave77]

great point golden wave. knowing your key signatures will make that a lot easier

Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

[vintagelove]

For me, it was all about learning to play the cycle. The whole tune, along with tons of other tunes just follow the cycle.

My 2 cents, learn to target the roots of cycle based tunes until you can easily follow them. From there 7ths to 3rds, arps, etc is just a matter of vocabulary.

a couple good cycle based tunes to work with

attya
fly me to the moon
rhythm changes
alice in wonderland
autumn leaves

a couple based on short cycles
afternoon in paris
ornathology
green dolphin street
really, a huge amount of the classic standards, but that's a good place to start.

best wishes,

[grahambop]

Can your hear and go through the entire chord progression in your head, including the important chord tones, without using the guitar? I find if I can do this, I can solo on the tune much more easily. I don't mean 'naming the chords', I mean hearing the sound and harmony of the chords, in time and in sequence, as if you have a backing track playing in your head.

If you can't do this, then practise comping the whole chord progression over and over until you can. Do you practise comping as much as soloing?

If it's not in my ears, I can't play it very well.

[mooncef]

In order to do this, you need to know chord tones and arpeggios without "now I find the root, and go up from there"...if you have to do this, you don't know them well enough.

i recently found out that i'm very root oriented in my arpegios soloing , the fact that my knowledge of the fretboard is a bit weak when it comes to the D G B strings , i think we naturaly learn the E A E string notes fasters , so that's why i always things root on E or root on A then i apply my intervalic knowledge . and that's huge problem since it pushes me sometimes to move to spots without a justification , just for my comfort .

[grahambop]

i recently found out that i'm very root oriented in my arpegios soloing , the fact that my knowledge of the fretboard is a bit weak when it comes to the D G B strings , i think we naturaly learn the E A E string notes fasters , so that's why i always things root on E or root on A then i apply my intervalic knowledge . and that's huge problem since it pushes me sometimes to move to spots without a justification , just for my comfort .

I think a step forward is when you learn to hear the 3rd of each chord rather than the root, and where to find it on the fingerboard. It's a much better interval to work from. Pat Metheny said a lot of his lines start from the 3rd.

[fep]

Try playing over the chords. In other words, move around the neck to play over the same positions as the chords that you would be playing if you were playing chords.

That's what I do. Most of the time I have a chord grip in mind that I'm playing over. I think this is a good approach for beginners like me, it's almost cheating. Also, I don't actually think scales or key centers much. I just have stuff that goes over chord grips that I'm familiar with, like arpeggios and various patterns that I like. Scales do end up being played but I'm not thinking of their names.

For example:

[Nate Miller]

i recently found out that i'm very root oriented in my arpegios soloing , the fact that my knowledge of the fretboard is a bit weak when it comes to the D G B strings , i think we naturaly learn the E A E string notes fasters , so that's why i always things root on E or root on A then i apply my intervalic knowledge . and that's huge problem since it pushes me sometimes to move to spots without a justification , just for my comfort .

that's the problem right there...forget about the root and pay attention to the motion of the 3rds and 7ths

when the root motion is following the cycle of 5ths, the 3rd of one chord moves to the 7th of the next and the 7th goes to the 3rd. These voices usually are only moving a half step or a step when the roots are moving in 5ths

when you start playing off the 3rds and 7ths you'll find it a lot easier to move through the changes and play something melodic

[vintagelove]

that's the problem right there...forget about the root and pay attention to the motion of the 3rds and 7ths

when the root motion is following the cycle of 5ths, the 3rd of one chord moves to the 7th of the next and the 7th goes to the 3rd. These voices usually are only moving a half step or a step when the roots are moving in 5ths

when you start playing off the 3rds and 7ths you'll find it a lot easier to move through the changes and play something melodic

Just playing devils advocate here.


It's probably the case that he has trouble even seeing the root motion through the cycle. If you're having trouble seeing the root, how do you see the 7th that resolves to the next 3rd? Now from there, where's the next chord? What note do you target now? Just jumping from 7th to 3rd on every chord?

The point I'm making is, IMO you need to hear that cycle movement first. 7th's going to 3rd's is just a matter of vocabulary once you can hear, and visualize the movement through the cycle.

[mooncef]

in fact i can target 3rds , the main problem here that i have is being not able to improvise the whoe song in just one position and have to move just for my comfort. it is surely due to my weakness in knowing D G B strings notes as good as E A E

[vintagelove]

in fact i can target 3rds , the main problem here that i have is being not able to improvise the whoe song in just one position and have to move just for my comfort. it is surely due to my weakness in knowing D G B strings notes as good as E A E

Hence my advice about being able to follow the root movement through the cycle. It will help you fill in those "fretboard knowledge" holes in the most practical way (for learning jazz as so many tunes are cycle based).

Best wishes,

[emanresu]

Dunno if it helps, here's what I did:
I had Giant Steps backing tracks(9 different ones) playing in my car whenever I drove to work and back (some 2h - once a week). I just sung along, scatted. I didn't play the damn thing at all then until I was sure that I didn't mess up the singing anymore. It took some months. Then tried with guitar and no problemo with reasonable tempo. Some hickups but not too many. Funny thing was that I had forgotten all about what chords were there Didn't matter. BTW, I'm not a fan of the tune. It was just a grudge.


Another (better imo) approach is to comp and scat the same time. Less passive braincells that way.

But none of them work unless you can effortlessly change key by ear. And predict them changes coming of course.

[bobby d]

in fact i can target 3rds , the main problem here that i have is being not able to improvise the whoe song in just one position and have to move just for my comfort. it is surely due to my weakness in knowing D G B strings notes as good as E A E

Yes, it's a different scale pattern staring on the D string. It's repeating the scale an octave higher and because of the way guitars are tuned, patterns change. We all need to work on this when learning new songs don't we?

I've been playing (and learning) ATTYA ever since I heard Joe Pass play it 40 years ago. What he does requires moving totally up and down the neck to many positions. That's because he played a mixture of chord melody and single notes.

Soloing in pretty much one position is something else to work on and if that's a weakness why not work on it? I tend to change positions when improvising any song myself. And it's always good to learn to play changes at different positions and/or octaves.

[Rsilver]

I suggest a different approach than what you describe. First, listen to a lot of recordings of the tune. Second, just imagine solos in your head. Can you hear a solo? That's what you are supposed to play. No 3rds or scales, just the melody you hear in your head. By repeated trials and errors, you will get better at finding the notes that you are hearing.

i know this is hard core, but you need musical ideas and you have to find them under your fingers. Many trials and errors and repetitions will do the trick.

the other stuff you describe (scales, 3rds, etc) is great when practicing, but when performing (improvising) just think up melodies (they can be quite simple) and play them by ear as best you can.

good luck!

[NoReply]

in fact i can target 3rds , the main problem here that i have is being not able to improvise the whoe song in just one position and have to move just for my comfort. it is surely due to my weakness in knowing D G B strings notes as good as E A E

Try limiting your practice to just D, G, B strings or even just two strings. Using limitations in practice teach so much it also good way to practice creativity. Joe Diorio and other talk about using limitation in practice, painters will paint with just two colors for same reason. One of the famous classical composers would teach composition and have student write using just one note, which sounded impossible, but it force them to really dig into rhythm and orchestration. By the time he let them use triads they overwhelmed with the possibilities using three notes.

As Steve Martin would say "let's get small".

[ragman1]

Over the years I must have played ATTYA a hundred times in different ways. The really simple version, just Ab for 5 bars, C for 2 bars... etc. I've done bossa versions, lydian versions, even an atonal version. Fast, slow, and medium.

By and large it's actually not that difficult. The difficulty comes in finding new and interesting ways to do it. The b9 sound suits the tune far more than a lot of altered sounds.

Teaching wise, I'd say start with the simplest thing then pop a few b9 sounds in over the dom7's. Add the occasional altered/outside sound and that's about it. It's not the only tune in the world.

What you don't want to do is think too much about it. If you pre-plan it too much your fingers will trip up because you're trying to match your free playing to the idea in your head. It'll sound forced because it is.

Settle on something simple within your capabilities and let go. That'll give you confidence in your playing. Then you can enlarge on it. Whereas if you start with very clever, complex stuff you'll probably fail and lose confidence.

[princeplanet]

You wanna sound like every other student? Then learn to run arps targeting 3rds and 7ths. You wanna sound worse than most students? Then try the hit and miss game with general scales. Can't be bothered analysing a dozen of your fave Jazz solos to see what's going on? Can't hear solos "in your head" that you can just somehow "find" on the instrument?
Hmmm, you're stuck...

But wait! There is a way out that works for a lot of great players. There has even been a thread or 2 about it on this Forum. Learn devices, patterns and language that fit neatly into just 2 categories - Tonic and Dominant. Any chord that is either I, iii, vi (or sometimes IV) is a Tonic class. The ii, V, viim7b5 (and sometimes IV) are Dominant class. For every temporary key there will be either T or D areas. If you have learned good material, then you will sound like your making every change, without boring chord spelling (arps), or vague, ambiguous scale "floating".

You'll sound more musical and it's easier to conceive. So how come you won't do it?

[ragman1]

That's not bad advice. Mind you, you can play an Em over a C but not a C over an Em

[emanresu]

I guess the bad 4th is the real indicator that you don't use ears when playing.

edit: by "you" I mean "me"

[christianm77]

You wanna sound like every other student? Then learn to run arps targeting 3rds and 7ths. You wanna sound worse than most students? Then try the hit and miss game with general scales. Can't be bothered analysing a dozen of your fave Jazz solos to see what's going on? Can't hear solos "in your head" that you can just somehow "find" on the instrument?
Hmmm, you're stuck...

But wait! There is a way out that works for a lot of great players. There has even been a thread or 2 about it on this Forum. Learn devices, patterns and language that fit neatly into just 2 categories - Tonic and Dominant. Any chord that is either I, iii, vi (or sometimes IV) is a Tonic class. The ii, V, viim7b5 (and sometimes IV) are Dominant class. For every temporary key there will be either T or D areas. If you have learned good material, then you will sound like your making every change, without boring chord spelling (arps), or vague, ambiguous scale "floating".

You'll sound more musical and it's easier to conceive. So how come you won't do it?

Everyone is convinced that jazz harmony is difficult, so they will find ways to make it difficult. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Anyway, ATTYA - blowing changes:

First bit
Ab | Eb7 | % | Ab |
(Db) | G7 | C | % |

Same thing up a fourth
Eb | Bb7 | % | Eb |
(Ab) | D7 | G | % |

Two keys in the bridge
D7 | % | G | % |
B7 | % | E | % |

First bit with a tag
Ab | Eb7 | % | Ab |
(Db) | Gb7 | Ab | % |
Eb7 | % | Ab | % |

Notice that the two movements here are dominants going up a 4th (V7-I, 'frontdoor') or up a tone (bVII7-I 'backdoor.')

Now all you have to do is come up with lots of interesting things to play on V7-I's and bVII7-I's which is much more fun than tracking endless chords if you ask me. There are lots and lots of ways to do this.

When you get slick at that you may also want to find some fun ways of getting into the dominant chords to start with.