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appologies but i have to totally dissagree with you !
Originally Posted by John A.
for me your approach just results in blowing bubbles ... no meaning , just streams of notes
for me the good stuff in sounds and music is in hearing an idea first in your head ...
then playing that on the guitar ....
but ....
in order to be able to do this well
I do work on my scales ! because familiarity with the scales/arps help to get all the intervals into me head ...Last edited by pingu; 03-31-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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03-31-2016 01:44 PM
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mr. beaumont, you know your intervals or are a good guesser because the Persian has a b2 and a fair amount of chromaticism along with stretches: puts you in the mind of a Phrygian-Dominant scale only without the Harmonic minor connection. I know scales vertically but now I'm going to move them up and down the fret board horizontally. I think this will open up some new chord possibilities for me. Thanks for the advice!
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Funny how over the years when this question is raised by newbs (no offence, but you sound like a Jazz newb, nothing wrong with that), no-one ever seems to suggest that scales don't sound like Jazz without the things that make Jazz Jazz.... Things like targeting chord tones, enclosures, use of language (both big bits and small), how to use chromaticism in a Jazz style, common Jazz patterns, post Bop concepts like quartals and triad pairs etc etc Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
If you're still just running scales, then you are hitting your ahead against the wall, and if what you say is true about possible brain trauma, you should stop doing that...
Go to the lessons site on this forum. All the answers are there (as well as in the recordings you admire). You don't have to learn everything at once, nor in any specific order. My advice (which will be different to many people's) is to just choose an aspect you like and master it. Then move to another. I takes the stress out of wondering whether or not you're wasting time, which will make you spin your wheels without going anywhere.
There is no magic bullet, there is no single text. That's the bad news, however, that's also the good news! Good because every player gets to plot their own course from the thousands of variable ways to learn the dozens of different types of "Jazz" in existence. Give yourself 10 years to get really good at 5 or 6 aspects of Jazz that appeal to you. Leave the other dozens for other people.
And stop posting on this forum asking for secret shortcuts. I used to think there must be as well, and like you, I refused to believe there weren't any. Trust me, if there were any, I'm exactly the kind of guy who would have found them. OK, maybe there is one thing I should have tried which you should if you're smarter than me - find a teacher who's playing you admire and has a reputation as being an effective teacher, and do as he / she teaches you with patience.
Come back to this post in 10 years time and see if I was right.
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There's always a lot of back-and-forth here about scales , but there are a lot of problems with just the way it's discussed. semantics BS. I think most people that argue against the importance of scales think of them as just running them straight up and down every day or something.
Sure, if you play another instrument there's an emphasis on arpeggios and targeting chord tones etc to start playing jazz , but there's also an assumption that you know BASIC scales down COLD. Arpeggios are scales, after all.
There's no joy in running them straight up-and-down every day, but that's NOT really working scales.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-31-2016 at 02:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Knowing scales is easy.
Knowing what to do with scales is... Not
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princeplanet: While I don't foresee anymore head trauma, at least from beating my head against the wall, miles of frustration and vacillations in and out of interest for jazz are entirely possible if I don't set my mind right and get the right information. I look for secrets more so than short cuts as my work ethic is first rate but it sobered me up a bit to read "10 years to get really good at 5 or 6 aspects of jazz that appeal to you." I'm 33 now and though I have a lot of experience playing guitar I am a jazz newb. I'm gonna pick 6 cause that's a nice even memorable number and even though my goals may change I'm going to write down those 6 aspects of jazz I want to master in the next 10 years. The "secret" now I believe is to play every day like it's my last and I think if I do that it won't be 10 years before I hear some seriously good music coming out of my speaker---Thanks so much!
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Roscoe,
Since no one has asked, "What Is Jazz For You?" I will ask because the only player you've mentioned is Allan Holdsworth.
If we consider that the first jazz recording Livery Stable Blues by The Original Dixieland Jazz Band was recorded in 1917 and the music was being played in New Orleans for years before that then jazz is over 100 years old.
Where along the timeline do your interests lie? Who are the players you most enjoy hearing?
We forumites can better offer you advice if you can tell us what you want to do.
Regards,
Jerome
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"a dirty monk," as my mother always says of somebody?
Holdsworth is, I imagine, the best in the world at what he
does. However I have applied some scholarship to his
instructional books and made little to no progress. One
reason is his "system" is based on math, a subject I
seem to have a deficiency in...I'm very verbal and
write lyrics and poetry (but not for jazz). Nevertheless
I have very powerful hands and fingers and I believe
I'll master Holdsworth's legato one day and maybe
approach what he does with chords (?? no words)
I also appreciate Joe Pass and while I don't want
to play a lot like him, he has my respect. Old jazz
faves are not pickers--Charlie Parker, John Coltrane,
Theolonious Monk and Miles Davis. I buy a lot of tab
books but learn some music by ear: I think I'm getting
better. I thought I wanted to do the Berklee Certificate
program but neither I nor my parents or grandparents
have the money (my grandparents paid for me to self
publish last year and I got two books in print but now
their budget is tighter and because I'm a poet and not
a very popular author i haven't made any money so
as of now no third book). I just bring all this up
because it's on my mind and I want you to know it is
a distant second to jazz guitar right now. PP said it'd
take 10 years to get there as a jazz player--Well I'm
willing to play for 20 years to get there if that's what
it takes! As of now I stay up all night and either play,
practice or think about it. Sometimes I'll only sleep a
few hours in the daytime. I used to do The Steve Vai
Guitar Workout and the Guitar Grimoire Exercise book---
I have the basic Grimoire Series, but I have got into
a rut using it too. In the back of the G.G. Progressions
and Improvisations book there are pages of jazz progressions.
While I have found these most useful as exercises,
harmonically they'll get you lost and not amused if you
try your hand at Holdsworth after a practice session with
them. I used to be heavy into DiMeola and McLaughlin
and while I still enjoy their music I rarely play acoustic
anymore so with that they somewhat lost their appeal.
I've gone On Long Enough but you guys are the best
and I sincerely thank you... Jon
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
diving into holdsworth before being able to play Stella is like deciding to pick up astrophysics when you got a D in algebra.
Here is the bottom line question (and answer).
How many standards/tunes do you know, and can confidently comp and solo over?
if the answer is 5, the solution to your "problem" is to know 50.
Good luck!!!
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You've have cited four of the greatest masters of jazz as your old jazz faves..why don't ou start with these guys? Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Forget guitarists - learn these guys' tunes, learn some of their lines, their feel, etc..learning one chorus of a Parker or Miles solo will teach you more than all these books, grimoires, etc..
If you can get the grasp of the basics of their language, the classic jazz language, then all the the more modern stuff you like Holdsworth etc, will probably come easier..
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vintagelove, I know what you are saying and I respect it. But I am a seasoned rock, blues and metal player
and while I know that doesn't convert exactly to jazz I see no reason I can't try some Holdsworth leads and songs...
I don't know any standards, yet, but I've got a chord melody book on the way that I'm going to use to remedy that.
Bear in mind I am New to traditional or bebop or standard jazz. Gotta go for now...thanks for your reply...
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rcpj: I don't know you (I hardly know anybody) but I think you give excellent advice and I'm going to learn the jazz greats on two fronts: I've ordered Charlie Parker for guitar sheet music, a book and chord melody for standards (which should get the older stuff in my ears (head). After I can feel Parker's style I may try John Coltrane and Thelonious Monk--I've heard them play together and separate and I am ready to get their chords and licks under my belt. Oh yeah besides the sheet music I'm going to listen to the backing tracks on YouTube and try to play along...sound reasonable?
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Always remember that there is not a single person on the planet that wants to listen to you play scales.
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Hello, I came up in that background too, then studied and earned degrees in classical guitar. Eventually my ears opened up to jazz and I really pursued it.
Jazz playing requires a whole different approach, for multiple reasons. It's all the things you are currently struggling with. The thing is, you seem to have most of the "TOOLS" already, you just don't have "anything to build with them". This is why you have to learn to play tunes (or at very least start shedding ii V I's like crazy).
Like everyone else, this first tune is going to be really tough, the fifth tune will come much faster, the 30th tune will be relatively "easy". It's just going to take time and work.
About Holdsworth, I am not implying you shouldn't take influence from it. If I were you I would try to cop his approach over things you're already comfortable with (in order to scale Mt Everest, you have to make it up to base camp first). If it makes you feel any better, I can play the sh@t out of some bebop... but...
I still watch Holdsworth videos in slow motion and "wonder what the hell is he doing"!!! He is a Super Nova of guitar.
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You got a plan on the go now - stick to it, be patient, and you'll get results.. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Once you start feeling some of Parker's language through the book, try accessing more of it through transcription w/out books, so you can develop your ears - very important...
Some of Monk's simpler heads like Well you Needn't/Epistrophy, etc wold also be good starter to instill a sense of rhythm..
Good luck on your journey..
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i haven't got any degrees, I haven't got any credentials I haven't got a damn thing but $40 to spend most weeks and memories of a guitar teacher who told me that "There is no doubt in my mind that Rob Zombie is Suh-tah-nic." Furthermore my ear is less than average, I can't sing without causing others pain, and even though i can play fast and furious and make up my own licks from scales learning songs is very hard for me, for some reason. Enough "I can't." What I do have is a big white Gretsch Electromatic that does the singing for me and a Line 6 amp that can get dirty enough for death metal (I of course clean it up when I play jazz). One other thing I have going for me is my fingers are very limber and I have the strongest hands and fingers of anyone I know, though I will say I've seen thinner weaker hands flutter faster, e.g. Joe Holmes playing Perry Mason with Ozzy: guess Joe put Mr. Strong Hands in his place. Still outside jazz if you watch Albert King and Stevie Ray in session you'll see some big powerful hands at work, but I know that is really a smaller part of why those guitarists were great. Let me get off here but tell me this: should I practice scales straight up and down or just focus on playing my own music and the tunes of others? Have a good day!
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Safe bet considering he's pretty much the only one who does it. (As opposed to the Grateful Dead, of whom it was sometimes said, "They're not the best at what they do, but they're the only ones who do it.") Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Hello, one problem with that line of though, fingers don't make music. What you want is the biggest strongest BRAIN of anyone you know. Music comes from the mind, it has VERY little to do with fingers.
You just gotta start learning tunes. The first one is the hardest, so take something not so complicated, maybe Autumn Leaves is a good start.
Best wishes.
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As far as my goals go, I want to play jazz that number one sounds very good and original, and number two
completely baffles peoples as to how my fingers and pick move "Like That!" I don't want to just have good
technique, I want to be able to play unique music with technique that scares people...and I say that with all
hyperbole aside...I am not on an ego trip (I don't think) I just practice and play and write as I feel led to. I'm
going to go work on my goals now, I'll be back in a few.
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One of the hard things to accept about learning jazz is that to get to the place where you can play "unique music" you first have to master the technique that allows you to play traditional music. It takes a long time, and by the time you're there (or nearly there) you may find that your artistic goals have changed. At least that's what happened to me. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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My "approach" was somewhat tongue in cheek. My more serious answer is that there's really only a small number of "scales" that are meaningfully different from each other in the functional harmony of jazz. Everything else is a variant or alteration of those. Some people, I guess find it helpful to name those variants, but I don't think most do. There's a great deal of mileage to be had in focusing on a small number of scales and patterns. Henry Robinett gave an excellent list. Arguably, you can add a few more (e.g., I might throw in bebop scales, and the other "Messiaen Modes" (of which diminished and whole-tone can be seen as subsets)), or you could call the additions nothing more than variants and think in terms of altering the 5ths, 9ths, and 6ths of a smaller set. But ultimately, jazz is about making music, not about playing scales. For a given chord progression, there's a fully diatonic pitch collection (the non-clams, when not clashing with what someone else is playing), and there are pitches outside that collection, which may or may not be clams depending on how you use them. The "how you use them" part (phrasing, dynamics, timbre, time, strong vs weak beats, etc.) is the difference between playing scales and playing music. Sometimes running a scale over a set of changes is a good musical idea -- it can be a path toward playing "outside" or other musical effects, but it's not what most improvisers are doing most of the time in a solo. Trying out various interval patterns in one's practice routines is a great way to burn new ideas into muscle memory. But having a distinct name for every possible run of 6-12 notes is not something I would find terribly helpful. Originally Posted by pingu
John
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princeplanet: Guy's got some technique I'll say...I'm a fast picker too but I have to anchor my hand with a finger or wrist so he's got great control. However I don't want to play like that: I just didn't hear too much in that solo that perked my interest. I'm a writer too and I read this quote that said "Write what you know, unless what you know is terribly boring then please! write something else..." Here's an example of music that's interesting to me: Al DiMeola playing 90 mph on an acoustic while palm muting: as much as I like legato, that type of staccato is an exceptional sound. But I also think it is cool to learn B.B. King's "B.B. box" and try to get some lucid jazz and blues sounds out of it, maybe adding or taking away some notes here and there. Let me get some opinions: Do you think I should continue "running scales" are just focus on making my own music, which is my favorite thing to do, and learning others? I know I've asked this before but I really want to beat the bushes and get an answer that inspires me because there are players like Steve Vai and the aforementioned DiMeola who (I think) practice scales and arps in their politically correct forms and I imagine there are others who may be as impressive but just create and get their practice from writing new music. I am naturally the latter type of player but I have modified my methods for the possibility of "virtuosity." What do you think?
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You may not "like" the Cannonball solo, but the sad fact is that if you want to play jazz, it IS the jazz language, and while a person does not have to be able to play it at that tempo, or play it at all, a person learning jazz will need to understand how the devices Cannonball (or any other of the heavy hitters) uses in that solo are relating to the chords/harmony passing by underneath while relating to the rhythmic pulse.
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Pretty much everyone in this thread has said the same thing: Scales are not where it's at. It's nice to know them, but it's not the goal. The goal is to make music, and "music" for most intents and purposes here, means tunes. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
If you're not interested in learning to play jazz tunes, and would rather create your own music, I'd say go for it, but there's not much that we can help you with here.
Frankly it sounds to me like you're fishing for a specific answer telling you that it's OK to do what you want to do anyway.
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Oh, if you just wanna scare people with widdly diddly prog, metal or gypsy technique, then just practice scales and arps for a few thousand hours , then go into your local guitar store and just plug in and play 'em. I'm sure you'll scare plenty of people. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Not sure if you really wanna learn real JAZZ , maybe you're thinking of rock fusion. That's more the domain where peeps wanna impress people with skinny strings with low action and distortion, echo etc. I'm just not sure this is the right forum for you. Peeps here are a bit older and have moved way past wanting to impress musically naive people with cheap technical tricks. Most Forum members here (I hope!) are devoted to Jazz because they love it, not because they wish people to envy them. I hope I don't sound too harsh, but seriously dude, we're not in High School here, try TGP.
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