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I had done some factual research on the overtone content of saxophones vs guitars and remember reading that the most important overtone was a lower octave. Hence, in addition to phrasing, one way of making the guitar sound like a sax would be playing octaves below the melody (like Wes?). I wonder what people with synth experience think.
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04-22-2016 12:12 PM
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My best guess was confirmed when dortmundjazzguitar spilled the beans on the approach to improvisation.
I have learned from others and from experimentation the importance of rhythm in jazz: I'm trying to make
that the priority. Plus, and I just thought of this, even with as many scales as I know, do I really want to
try and be the Yngwie of jazz and play scales/arps at lightning speed and be IMO not musical or interesting
at all? To put it another way, do I want to wow people at Guitar Center or make seriously good music with
depth and verve? I want the latter which IMO is the harder way to go...
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I started on piano... then trumpet, tenor, sill have one, and played Tb through college...
First of all any player on any instrument can only play what they have the skills to play. The very physical thing.
Having technique is not about being able to play... what you can already play... I have always believed technique gives you the ability yo perform what you haven't played. I read unison or arranged soli sections with saxes or just two part arrangements all the time. That comes from being able to sight read well.
Personally different sax players or composers have different styles.... but generally what sounding like a sax comes down to phrasing and articulation. The actual choice of notes... can change.
Horn players are from a written tradition. They developed their skills from notated music.... notated music... requires, phrasing and articulations. What generally happens is... from common practice, typical lines that have been played a million times, become common practice phrasing and articulations.... standard breathing, attacks, durations and all aspects of how notes are connected...articulations are the sub-division of a phrase.
Typically guitarist generally use the.... the guitar will create the articulations, because, I don't even know what articulations are, and I am happy just getting the phrase out.
A better approach to learning how to sound like sax is to learn... what phrasing and articulations are on the guitar. You'll then usually find you need more fingerings... and note patterns or organization. You begin to see and hear the target notes and the connection fill etc...
As with most thing... trying to learn something by memorizing and performing something with what skills you have... usually hits walls quickly... if you even get in the room.
If your still in the memorize approach... just play heads with saxes. and during solos, trade 4's or 8's with sax, try coping what the sax plays, most have tons of lines they've practiced their whole life...
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Sorry to disagree - but NO, this ain't right at all.
Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Although it may ring somewhat true for the lower-level player who survives on regurgitation like a nest-reared infant, it equates with fakery. The aim of the game is to be able to take wing and unfold a song with no licks and no tricks. Nothing remotely related to rock.
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04-22-2016, 01:22 PM #280dortmundjazzguitar Guesta romantic view, often taken by civilians Originally Posted by Lazz
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+1 Originally Posted by Lazz
I would agree more about spending time practicing common situations so you have experienced many way through it not just a lick that works. I forgot who said it but important, "better to know ten licks and how to use a hundred ways, than to know a hundred licks."
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you know, for the good of the order, there are jazz players who are "licks" players.
its not the only way, but it is a way
I don't think of myself as a "licks" player, but if quotes are considered a form of "licks" then I'm as guilty as the next guy
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In reality, it's a combination.
I mean, I'm nobody, but I can improvise without "licks" using slower/longer melodic rhythms...so am I really to believe a better player can't do it with 8th notes or over faster changes?
But yeah...we all have licks. Anyone who denies playing licks is blessed with a short-enough-term memory that they don't recognize their own
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Question for Lazz: Does Bird's playing "equate with fakery?" Because that guy had him some licks.
I think all players have licks, but one thing I've noticed about the really good players is, they know their licks forward, backward, ascending, descending, inverted, and every other permutation you can think of. If you look at it that way, one "lick" can provide a lot of material.
I agree with Jeff, though. It's a combination.
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"Sorry to disagree - but NO, this ain't right at all.
Although it may ring somewhat true for the lower-level player who survives on regurgitation like a nest-reared infant, it equates with fakery. The aim of the game is to be able to take wing and unfold a song with no licks and no tricks. Nothing remotely related to rock."
.... Yep
...as Chick Corea says-- "spontaneous composition" ---not spit out your favorite licks with slight variations,
........is having a "big OL' bag of licks" really authentic improvising.
A favorite line here and there is common but if you think people save up licks and then spit them out ad nauseam and that is 'improvising' you have a funny view on improvising....
"a romantic view, often taken by civilians" --not with the guys who can play................
Last edited by jazzimprov; 04-22-2016 at 04:58 PM.
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To me the difference is thinking to play a lick, and noticing you played a lick you have worked on. Everyone practices licks, riffs, patterns, and hopefully variations of them, then practice in chord cycles or tunes. Once in a real performance thinking about it should be gone and you are playing in the moment and letting thing happen and responding.
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Roscoe T.,
Good luck with your efforts.
You said you "love an alto sax esp." but be reminded that the guitar is a tenor
voice and guitar music is written transposed up an octave; tenor sax is up a 9th.
This might matter if you are not aware of it. I am not going to assert, and this is
just my personal opinion, that except for a few genius players, the alto is for Grrls.
Rent a horn, even a Grrl horn, take a few lessons and you will get it.
With a sax your body is doing many things simultaneously to get just ONE note at a time.
The monophonic, whole-body experience of wind instruments contributes to the difference
you are trying to suss out.
Or, you could transcribe, by ear, a lot of Lester Young. I mean, he was in the
'Old Testament' Band, how much more authority do you need?
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How necessary do you think it is to know how to PLAY a sax? I don't think so. I think
The important thing is to get the sound in your head. Hit accents and do some legato, slurs. But not too much legato without accents. The great thing about the sax as opposed to guitar is ALL the expressive tricks. Also the built in phrasing based on breath.
All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_
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Reg, I know you are a respected member of this forum and I thank you for your advice--that said, I am a shit-house musician compared to you just like I am a shit-house poet compared to the Ivy League graduates and teachers that I read. What I mean is this: you "know music" through sound, theory and notation whereas i only know what I hear and what my technique can provide me with. However I started teaching myself theory, from a rock/metal guitarist's perspective which meant I knew how to use minor, diminished and exotic scales over fast and faster riffs--I'm not bragging, it's all been done before, but I think you can see how what I've learned means little in jazz..on the off beat but in the same key (so to speak) I've found this excellent resource in the Jazz Blues ebook which teaches a plethora of chords, scales and progressions that are also suitable for other kinds of jazz...e.g. the bebop scales are taught in the most lucid and understandable manner I've found--the famous (infamous) Guitar Grimoire contains the bebop scales presented as dots in a diagram: the J.B. ebook gives you the diagram AND tells you that a bebop minor is just a Dorian mode with a chromatic tone in between the flat 7 and the root. I "knew" or thought I knew the scale until I read that...! Same thing with the other bebops: turns out the b.b. dominant is just a Mixolydian with a tone between the b7 and the root--Sorry about all the scale and mode malaise I guess I was just trying to show how we all learn differently: I'm very verbal so when I read it it makes sense to me and based on what Reg wrote I know I need more "make a guitar sound like a jazz guitar" before I move on to the sax. So I plan on listening to Coltrane and Davis but trying to learn Django, Charlie and jazz blues players. Does anybody besides me find it astounding what B.B. King said about Django being his favorite to listen to (I believe)? I've gone on too long as usual, thanks for listening...Roscoe
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henryrobinette,
I agree with you entirely and do not feel one needs to really be able to play
a sax to "borrow" from sax players.
Horns & reeds are innately swell and just like guitar or any instrument they lend
themselves to certain actions & sounds, different from other instruments.
Winds & strings=very different muscle memory, different natural inclinations.
I've played winds a little (badly, just like my guitar) and it is really the listening
to real musicians that informs but the feel tells some too. It never hurts to have
an instrument you breathe into around the playpen.
Yes, I admit, this is probably not practical advice for most; even a blues harp is better
than nothing!
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Not at all necessary. Knowing the mechanics is useful I guess, if only to understand how they are able to physically structure there lines. Could you imagine if the guitar had an octave key????
You're exactly correct on your other points, especially the importance of listening to them.
best wishes,
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You mean I'm correct in your opinion on all of my points then. It's not necessary to play the sax. What's important is to understand phrasing and dynamics.
All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_
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Henry, I have a question I think you might know the answer to given your musical experience, but if any other members of the forum have an answer or opinion on this I'm all open ears---I have an Uncle that I play guitar with, he and his acoustic and I and my Gretsch, and he don't jive wi' no jazz so we play the standards and the Dylan and what he knows, but he's also into Grisman and Garcia and plays mandolin too. So a long time ago I feel the need to get a mandolin, play it for awhile get a book or two on it then it goes in the closet. My question: how much good will a mandolin do me so far as learning jazz is concerned? I Know I'm W-a-y out of sax range now...take me seriously cause I honestly don't know whether to get the mandolin back out again---
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Have an ear at this :
Jim Hall 'Live 1975' album, the bible of trio playing, with Don Thompson on double bass, here Round Midnight :
"I employ at least three types of picking,
just not organized in a routine--i tremolo pick
usually medium to hard, alternate (or as a former
guitar teacher of mine used to say "alternative"
pick, but I've never heard that anywhere else)
scales and arpeggios, all off this with my wrist
and arm, then I economy pick 3 note per string
scales with my thumb and forefinger and wrist."
-->Tremolo picking shoud not be a technique by itself. It should involve your standard picking, which by being totally relaxed, should lead you to high speed warp zone rainbow road race
--> Alternate and economy/sweeping are basics that we should practice daily as a warm up for example.
--> You can practice how to reduce the change of technique (position, movement) when switching between alternate and sweeping/economy. The transition need to be seamless, especially if you want to play some sax or other tasty lines. I would recommend you to have the same basic movement for both techniques...
I can propose you some exercices for this. I had the same technical difficulties ( ) as you. (Being a Pantera influenced guitarist in my youth
). The key is being relaxed and feeling the rythm.
What does "youns" means ?
PS : I saw a user of this forum 'Reg' playing. Reg, your impressive right hand technique has a taste of Paul Gilbert's one. It is a compliment, no offence sir
Last edited by youns; 04-23-2016 at 03:30 AM.
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This is going to sound harsh.
But the real players are spending time in the woodshed, transcribing, jamming, or on gigs, instead of making a bunch of forum topics asking about what they're thinking or about the modes of the melodic minor scale.
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It's possible to alternate pick "smooth" and economy pick aggressively, it's just not as physically intuitive.
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I'll just add to what's already been said. I think a lot if it is placement of accents and slurs. Sonny Stitt is a big hero of mine and I've lifted a lot of his solos. I would ear something out I thought was really hip only to find it harmonically very simple. It soon dawned on me that one thing that immediately made everything sound more like bebop was to slur to the beat. So if you want to practice a bebop scale you have to start on an off beat (which already makes it a little hipper) and finger so that you can do a pull-off to the beat. Something as simple as that makes a big difference, I think.
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Of course every player develops a vocabulary of licks but when improvising they should be more in the unconcious mind. Most players will repeat certain licks at some point no matter how complex their playing becomes.
Truly improvising is about freedom and playing with emotion. To do that, it helps immensely if the song is not only memorized but known so well that one doesn't have to think of the changes. So the real players know lots of standard Jazz very well already. Thinking can be replaced by feeling at a certain point, but there's a need to get to know everything about the chords and scales of each song. This takes lots of practice time!
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Hey Roscoe.
Great post.
Music is a language as we know and being fluent requires alot of vocabulary and much experience applying it.
If you are passed the stage, (and it seems like you are) of being very conscious of scalar, chord tone devices etc.., when playing, then you can start to focus on motivic phrases and ideas slowly at first. For guitarists, I always seem to start my students off with playing and developing phrases from the songs melody like many horn players do. Mainly because what you posted as a concern is an issue for all of them with expressing their ideas and phrases. Deriving ideas from the tunes melody puts the phrase or idea upfront in our minds and ears, and the inner workings of the language like intervals, chord scales and arpeggios more in the background like when we express ourselves in our spoken language.
The great drummer Bob Moses said in his wonderful book "Drum Wisdom", that he always plays from an idea, always! In the first few years many instrumentalists are learning this vocabulary. It gets embedded into there system, motor skills and so forth, and that often becomes the focal point of there improvisations, disregarding motivic development.
Besides, the song is the melody. We can learn to develop any phrase in a myriad of ways that already exists, revealing some important personal traits that come up in our interpretation. A cool thing to do is just keep playing the melody without trying to force change it. Notice what you hear at first with small rhythmic, then contour, melodic and harmonic variations. What you learn from this can soon be easily applied to your own ideas.
Eventually as it changes you may stop to think, "am I playing the melody still or improvising." When you become more adept in your solos, you can always at anytime allude to the melody keeping you connected to the actual tune you are playing on. I never play from licks though I do create and practice many concepts that evolve eventually and naturally into vocabulary for me. This will greatly enhance your ability to creatively develop short, medium and longer phrases with the linear and vertical knowledge you already possess. Hope this offers some help.
JimLast edited by gtrmus; 04-23-2016 at 03:34 PM.
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Licks vs no licks....yawn.... Jazz players use Devices more than they use "licks". That is why their lines may resemble other lines they may have played elsewhere, without being verbatim repeats. This is a good thing, one's devices creates one's STYLE.
You gotta look a little harder to spot a player's devices though, then you gotta figure out how they're being implemented. Then you might want to implement them your own way, change them, or be inspired to roll your own...
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