When to use the different guitar scales

[Jonah]

Hi Klausm,

there's a risk that many answers will add some mess again to it.. so I'll try to put it as clear as possible. (I am also non-native English-speaker so our chances for mutual misunderstading increase)))

1)
As I could understand the problem you have is more about hearing the scale and hearing the scale as associated withe certain relative chord/arpeggio (for now let's take arpeggio and chord as the same thing).

We have A Dorian scale

a-b-c-d-e-f#-g

We have B Phrygian scale

b-c-d-e-f#-g-a

The notes are sbsolutely the same. And actually if you accent G, you will result in playing G major scale in both cases.

So what makes them different? Let's just try to see... we are used to minor/major scales - let's use them as reference...

A Dorian is natural A minor with minor 6th (F#)... so the root tone is A and the characteristic pitch is F# (minor 3rd)
But we should remember that characteristic pitch is referential to other scales - we could find other tones to be characterestic too in reference to other scales - F# is just the most individual here in concern of practically any scale.

B Phrygian is natiral A minor with minor 2nd (C)... so the root tone is B and the characteristic pitch is C (minor 2nd) But we should remember that characteristic pitch is referential to other scales - we could find other tones to be characterestic too in reference to other scales - C is just the most individual here in concern of practically any scale).

If you play them you'll see the notes are the same - if you accent G you'll end up playing 'G major' in both cases...
If you just noodle around the scales you have to accent roots and chacracterestic pitches - then you will hear the difference... - put them on the strong beats - repeat them - try to resolve to them etc.

Then...

If we realte common 7th chord with A Dorian scale - it should be Am7
If we relate common 7th chord with B Phrygian - it will be Bm7

So we have the right to say - wha the ...? Scales are different but chords are absolutely the same! If both were A - then we would not have heard no difference in chords! But the difference in scales is very significant at the same time!

To hear the difference - let's go all the way through with chords...

I am convinced that to teach modern jazz scale theories we should give complete 13th chord as reference and then go back to basic 7th again

A Dorian
a-c-e-g-b-d-f#- (a)
1(root) - min3rd - 5th - 7th - 9th - 11th - 13th

B Phrygian
b-d-f#-a-c-e-g- (b)
1(root) - min3rd - 5th - 7th - min9th - 11th - 13th

As you can see it's just the corresponding scale tones set up in 3rds

These are complete 13th chords which we hardly use in practical playing
So lets get back to our basic 7th and add carachteristic pitches to get some basic chords still sounding mopre like scales

Am7 will become Am6 (or Am13 - if you want to keep 7th, 9th or 11th in it)
Bm7 will become Bm7b9

Actually you can also play just common 7th chords too if you understand and hear scale tones and involve them in lines properly


2)
About playing arpeggio.
- the term means (as I am sure you know) - the chord tones played consequently. Cmaj7 arpeggio is C-E-G-B (ascending) and backwards descending. This is abstract musical definition.
- And there's also techical use of this term. Which means play some chord in 'harp style' and it's not necessarily exact arpeggio - it's more like arpegiated chord shape - like Cmaj7 on guitar in x35453 -will sound C-G-B-E-G - as you can see some notes are omitted - it's not consequent.

What is impoertant to understand in my opinion is that playing arpeggio should not be opposed to using and applying scales or chord-scale theory

When you choose to have arpeggio as basics for your melodic line that means you have some choprd in reference - but it does not mean that you exclude scales theoretic approach...

What is really to be opposed is functional tonality approach based on traditional classical harmony (using ii-v-i, superimposition, and other tools involving T-S-D- relations) and chord-scale theory (original jazz modal harmony based on reations between chords and scales)

Enough to say that Major is not Ionian and Minor is not Aeolian though the notes are abslutely identical. Because when we use it as major scale we involve different harmonic tools than when we think of as of Ionian etc.


But both methods could and should use arpeggio in line compostion process as there are chords in both of them. And where we have chords - we have arpeggio as the most solid chord reference).

But it is important to have correct chord in reference! Here switch back to poin 1) in this post


Actually there's not problem to mix both methods - as I believe most of modern players do more or less.

Important note: scales in jazz can be use for 'non-chordal playing' too.. this is closer to mediveal linear polyphonic modality... when resulating vertical harmony has less importance for music than leanear horizontal movement and intonation... but considering your interests in music I would not care about this approach at least for the moment...

PS
To apply this CST to guiatr I really recomend Reg's approach explained in this forum - I've seen many but it looks to be the most thought - through musical and ergonomic from pov of combination musical approacvhes with organization of guiatr fretboard and phisiology of playing...
I do not say others are bad but if you choose to learn conciously and gradually this is the most effective... you just learn to learn all and almost from the beginning.

[Roscoe T. Claude]

Klausm, it seems you're on the right track, let me see if I can add to what the others are saying by telling you how I look at chords, scales and arpeggios. It's true that the chord and arpeggio come from the scale, but how? Let's look at a C major scale: the notes are C, D, E, F, G, A, B. Here's a C major 7 chord and arpeggio: C, E, G, B. So what's the difference in playing a scale or arpeggio? A popular voicing for a C major chord is C, G, B, E, that's the first, or 1, 5, 7, 3. A C major triad arpeggio is C, E, G, and a major 7 arpeggio is C, E, G, B. You can clearly see the differences and similarities between the chords, scales and arpeggios if you start with the scale, which contains all the notes used for the chords and arpeggios. I'm keeping it really basic to start with, but if you get the Guitar Grimoire Chord Encyclopedia and Scales and Modes books they will explain all of the more advanced concepts. I'm sure other people have different sources to recommend and I'm not saying I'm better than them, I'm just telling you what works for me. I don't know what kind of budget you're on or if you're filthy rich or what, but if you can buy only one item I'd say go with The Easy Guide to Jazz Guitar Arpeggios. It is very well organized with clear explanations and gets you started with tunes: excellent buy. Next, if you're more interested in chords the Guitar Grimoire Chord Encyclopedia will suit you and if you want to div into scales try the Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes and to put it all together the Guitar Grimoire Progressions and Improvisations would be my first pick for you. Now that you've heard about all the Grimoire you can stand I'll tell you what a more experienced jazz player told me: listen. Listen and transcribe (or learn by ear like I do, not writing anything down). I hope this helps you and let me know if it does--Jon