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Hello all,
I've been on a Pat Martino kick lately, listening and also watching youtube instructional videos. There is a whole lot of talk about what notes to play, but I haven't found anything about how he actual plays the lines.
To me, his eighth note lines sound like a laser beam. I want to be able to do this!
A major scale played by Pat can sound intense and unrelenting.
Anyone have any thoughts on how to achieve this? I have spent a lot of time trying to with no luck. I'm thinking it's about playing ahead of the beat, but my experiments trying to play ahead of the beat have not yet resulted in that same kind of intensity.
If possible, can we limit this conversation to phrasing/beat placement and other secrets of his eighth note lines and no harmonic/melodic/creative rhythmic content? Straight eighths rhythm only for this topic!!
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03-13-2016 08:18 PM
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Is he picking harder than you are? Is his sense of swing, accenting and time feel more solid than yours?
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Solid time is one of the most important things. ROCK solid time. Playing ahead of, or behind the beat won't make any difference if the time isn't solid. In a lesson that's floating around the 'net, Pat Metheny once said that Brecker could play anything and make it sound great because his time "..is like a fright train, a Mac truck..". So, work on your time. I'd start with one note, make it bury the metronome, or sit so far in the lap of the drum machine that it becomes one thing. At some point it should almost sound/feel like you're playing the drum machine or metronome. Until that's solid, none of Pat's beat placement things will matter.
So, what do you do once your time is gettin' there and you still want to know what Pat's doing? Transcribe a short snippet of his and record yourself playing it over and over and over and over until you sound like Pat.
Those are my thoughts on it.
Good luck!
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I can't describe why Pat Martino's playing feels like a laser beam. But I believe that his timing is essential. When I first heard Billy Bean I became convinced that a large, basic part of Martino's typical swing comes from Bean. Hope you find the secret!
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I agree with ghoststat. Time feel is essential to what you're talking about. Make the metronome your bitch. :P
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Thanks everyone!
Yes, everyone said time. Rock solid time.
You're right, 57, Billy Bean (never heard of him before-thank you) has the same quality. Hmmm, I'm starting to think that it's rock solid time on that exact part of the beat and that while I feel rock solid right on the beat, I'm not so rock solid ahead of the beat like that.
Bean is interesting, because it's a softer picking style, but similar effect, although I agree with prince, that Martino has some picking intensity for sure.
When you say "a large, basic part of Martino's typical swing comes from Bean" - how would you describe this swing feel on words?
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I would have thought this was Martino.
I feel like I play more like the piano player who solos after Bean. Nice stuff, just not as laser beam focused. I guess that's just consistent beat placement and time?
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Tips on practicing ahead of the beat with metronome?
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I was thinking no way when I heard you mention Billy Bean as a major Pat influence (never heard Beans playing), then I clicked on your link.
No small similarity there, he's also from Philly. I've never heard Pat mention him as an influence…..could have just missed it.
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Can you play dead-on with it, yet? When you start playing behind, or ahead of the beat, and your internal clock isn't near perfect, it's like listening to a potato sack race on oiled ice.
Here's a pretty good discussion about it:
Playing behind/ahead of the beat? - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM
and this seems to be a good explanation of how to practice it:
"From what's been posted already, you probably have a good idea of what behind/ahead of the beat is, but that begs the question: how do you develop and practice it?
Start very, very simply. Play quarter notes at 60 bpm (use a metronome) with your right hand. Practice landing them square on the click, so that you can't even hear the click anymore. This part is somewhat zen-like, because when you're doing it right, there's no affirmation, because you can't hear the click. If you are behind or ahead, then you will hear the click a bit.
Then try playing ahead of the click. Create a "flam" between the click and your playing (your playing occurs first). Strive for a consistent spacing between the click and your playing.
Then try playing behind the click (the click occurs first). Again, strive for consistent spacing.
As you get comfortable with each of these scenarios, try switching between them after a specific amount of measures. You will find that it's easier to "bury" the click (play dead on) after you've learned to control your time such that you can speed up or slow down by very small amounts.
Repeat the above, but with basic rock beats, blues shuffles, jazz waltz, etc. It's especially difficult to play fills while maintaining the same time-center!"
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"Pat Metheny once said that Brecker could play anything and make it sound great because his time "..is like a fright train, a Mac truck..". So, work on your time"
and -------make sure the metronome is on 2 & 4 not 1 & 3
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True.
Originally Posted by jazzimprov
"Pat Metheny once said that Brecker could play anything and make it sound great because his time "..is like a fright train, a Mac truck..". So, work on your time"
and -------make sure the metronome is on 2 & 4 not 1 & 3
Is this in reference to the Hal Galper thing?
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Lol, people get so worked up about that Hal Galper metronome click thing...like in the over 3 hours of masterclass he's got on YouTube, that's the only thing you hear about.
Actually, you might try the 1 and 3 for Pat type lines...it does change the feel. It's a cool experiment.
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I know what you mean. I ask because I actually agree with him, to an extent. I think shedding with both is a good idea. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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nothing to do with Hal...
--just that that is where the pulse is, and once you can get that in your head, you can turn it around so when you are on 1 & 3 you have the pulse of 2 & 4 contained in it otherwise 1 & 3 will be flat.Last edited by jazzimprov; 03-14-2016 at 02:43 PM.
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Billy Bean and Pat Martino both have extremely clean articulation as well. I wonder if that plays into their very strong sense of time.
Last edited by dingusmingus; 03-14-2016 at 02:46 PM.
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I just practiced ghostrat's explanation above:
Thoughts:
1) On my instrument, I did not hear the "This part is somewhat zen-like, because when you're doing it right, there's no affirmation, because you can't hear the click."
So, I switched to drum stick and can now experience the zen-like no affirmation. COOL
2) I realized, to my surprise, I naturally feel ahead of the beat. Took some time to lay back and get right on it with no click coming through.
3) hmmm, if I'm already feeling ahead of the beat naturally, then Martino is way ahead of me, or something else....
will keep experimenting.
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Thoughts 2:
This is starting to get complicated.
What is the beat in a live playing scenario with no click?
One person could be playing way behind their idea of where the beat is, but it could be still ahead of someone else's idea of where the beat is, no?
Now what?
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From the liner notes of Strings (1967): Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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You're either born with that feel or not. Same thing with hard nose blues ala SRV, you either feel that way inside, or not.
Interestingly, for people with that fire, turning it off can be difficult.
Everybody is different, we all excell and struggle at different things.
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Transcribe a solo... Slow it down ..... Analyze it. Put it a software to slow it down, "Transcribe" software (www.seventhstring.com) is good for this... Originally Posted by yotsn
That's the way to do it! The hard way! One note at a time... Slow and easy at first.... Good luck to you!
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Mine on yours: Originally Posted by yotsn
1. I'm glad you were able see how it felt to bury the metronome, you'll know what to shoot for on your instrument. How many notes were you playing when you tried it on guitar? I'd start with just one. Pick a register, pick a note, and play with the metronome/drum machine until you can bury it pretty consistently.
2. I tend toward the same thing.
3. Work on your time every day for the next year, recording practice sessions along the way, and see where you are in a year. It's the constant in almost everyone's responses. You may not be playing on Martino's level, but you will see considerable progress toward your goal. On day 365, listen to recording from day 1.. I bet you'll feel pretty good about it.
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I used to worry about the same thing. It's "trust". When you play with a group, you trust that the other players have practiced and worked on their time, and that they'll do their best to stay with the tempo that was agreed upon. That's where you *start*, and you're right, it does get more complicated, but it starts to seem less so the more you work on fundamentals. It's easy to think yourself into paralysis with this stuff. You just have to trust that things will unfold at a natural rate. Originally Posted by yotsn
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Pat has some books/dvd's out that have examples of his lines.You might want to look into those. This one might be a good place to start: http://www.amazon.com/Pat-Martino-Th..._1458011258771 And of course transcribing lines is always a good idea.
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It's weird man, part of me wants to strongly disagree and strongly agree with what you wrote, so I do. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Dude, I totally agree!
Man, I totally disagree.
You hit it right on the head.
Here's how I've come to terms with it: everyone is born with some sort of 'feel', it's just that some fall perfectly into certain genres (and/or they find their natural path around the instrument) and they end up playing like Martino, Brecker, et al. Then there are other players whose natural feel fights the sounds of the masters we all love. So, there's this natural flow in the background just waiting to be discovered and refined, but we're still trying to play some other way. The trick is finding how the fingers want to naturally flow and then make music with it, whether that be your own 'thing' or in the context of someone else's.
So, yeah, I totally agree, some people are born with the feel that leaves them sounding like SRV, et al, and then there's all the other feels waitin' to be found.
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