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I always have my comfort zone on on the fretboard where I know well all the arpeggios and scales, and I got the less convenient less explored places on the fretboard.
I must mention I remember the chords progressions by ear(I hear chords in my head and find them on the the guitar), and I always find the scales(modus) by ear.
but after all I interpret what I hear in my head to positions on the fret board, and as I explained above I feel limited because of that.
I want to understand if there is a higher level of thinking and musical hearing when you don't have to think about positions at all and you can play free on all the fretboard and even can do a transposition to any standard you know to any key of the twelve you want with out practice on the specific key you play the standard on.
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03-08-2016 08:13 PM
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Practice playing on one string.
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dasein's got it. Gene Bertoncini teaches learning the scales on each string and relating each note to its functional role in the scale. He started with the lowest available note on the string in each scale, not necessarily the root. Open E would be the root of E, the 3rd of C, the 7th of F, etc., and you work your way up and down from there:
E = 7th, F = root, G = 2nd, A = 3rd, Bb = 4th, etc.
Do the same with the various minor scales, pentatonic scales, etc. Pianists and horn players have to think this way and it can help us too.
If you watch Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, etc., you will see them doing a lot of this.
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you my want to think about putting a little theory to what you can do with your ears already. If you learned the Roman numeral notation for chords, then you'd know functionally how the changes relate to one another, and then its easier to move the tune anywhere you want/need to play it.
that's how most guys do it. I mean transpose on the spot like that.
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i never think about positions so yes, of course.
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I can do it but I never found it useful. I don't play on one string. I see the fretboard as a piece.
Originally Posted by dasein
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Playing polyphonic lines is difficult on one string.
I think the answer to your question depends on the type of phrase you are playing. For some songs just playing the pure melody line can be more challenging than other tunes. And playing polyphonic lines can be easier often because it narrows your transition options as regards fret position. In one fundamental way the best approach is simply getting to the next note, one after the other. But I think it is more on a subconscious level.
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As above... yea eventually you don't need to look a fretboard either.
Although... I will mechanically create relationships when soloing sometimes... say your playing over a Db lydian chord... I mechanically might get into the Bbmin pentatonic. It's just a relative Bb dorian min to Db Lydian relationship. But sometimes the physical relationship helps create a call and answer feel. So becomes a two fretboard shape device. I'm actually after the approach...I can keep developing each reference.... Db lyd. and Bb min. or pentatonic.
I can modal interchange to BbMM and the patterns change, #5 to the Db and ma7 to the Bb.
Personally there's not much difference between creating relationships in my head or mechanically on the fretboard. But I like having the options.
The 1 string thing is just a starting point... you eventually move on. And it become a sound you may want to use.
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For major scale derived stuff, I pretty much never think about position. My fingers seem to find the right notes without too much input from my eyes or memory. For other stuff, I usually do need to think about it, but I'm confident that that will get pretty automatic after a while.
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no I can't do that ...
when I'm playing its a big mixture of memory , ears , muscle memory , a bit of theory, saying the changes to myself ,
listening like crazy , a bit of winging/ busking/intuition etc ....
and probably a lot else besides
sometimes i play something exactly/approximately as i meant it to come out ..... sometimes
ie its a fair mess in my head !
when i read that back it sounds quite an unpleasant experience but somehow its not
its absolutely great !
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when i watch joe pass solo chord/melody
he often appears to be in the state you mention
so yeah i think it is possible to play like you described in the OP
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It's definitely possible. Anything is possible really. You just have to visualize what you want, and work towards it. Music is like a mirror that reflects back whatever you put into it. Originally Posted by hag01
I used to study with Peter Bernstein. We basically just played together. I learned "What's New" from a Sinatra version. I think he sang it in A Major? But the original was written in C? I think. Anyways, I didn't realize that Sinatra changed the key. So when Pete and I sat down to play the tune, we started in two different keys. Before I could even think to transpose the tune, he just goes, "Oh cool, I've never played it in A."
Then he proceeded to play it better than I've ever heard another guitar player... with zero thinking time to reconfigure. He just played it.
But that's because he works on those types of things. He doesn't wait until he perfects a standard to try it in a new key. The second he's even remotely comfortable, he starts moving the key around.
You play the way you practice. It's important to know what you want from your music, and then to sort of reverse engineer it... and work yourself into that through how you practice and approach the instrument and the music.
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I never think "position". I just know where I'm at and what's immediately within reach. I can visualize the fingerboard so when I move my hand that situation repeats.
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By "position", I assume you mean fret position as for classical guitar. I think most good jazz musicians on any instrument think of both chord progressions and melodies in relative terms: i.e., intervals. That's why you'll find much more discussion around here of shapes and scale patterns than positions.
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I remember Dave cliff telling me that he tends to improvise over the chord positions - that's a pretty old school way of doing it... I kind of do this myself. But the more chord grips you learn the more joined up your knowledge of the neck will be. It's perhaps one reason why practicing voicings is a good way to work on your soloing.
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I think of arpeggios as the heart of old school improvisation. Arpeggios are closely related to chords of course. I think "improvising over chord positions" really means improvising over arpeggio shapes. Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by KirkP; 03-16-2016 at 11:56 AM.
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I see the fretboard as one big grid now. Once you put in the time to think a lot about this stuff you don't consciously think of position, but you are aware of it on a subconscious level. If you can visualize all the note on the fretboard right now and you can instantly see every note clearly in your mind you don't have to think about it when you are playing.
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Well sure, but arpeggios are just the start of course. In practice it means relating every bit of language, scale, pattern and so on that you learn to a chord. That way you know where the chord tones are. Originally Posted by KIRKP
In practice you chunk it down a bit. A ii v I line for example might be thought of in relation to the target chord position.
The only thing you need to watch out for are the joins. So you need to learn a few different positions. It's good to practice limitations though - solo only between frets 5-9 or only on the middle three strings etc. Forces you to learn the less well known positions.
That's the way I play anyway.
EDIT: I'm working more on scales now which I am trying to play as 'randomly' and 'non positionally' as possible.Last edited by christianm77; 03-16-2016 at 01:30 PM.
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I got this from Joe Pass' concepts mostly in his video "blue side of Jazz". Pass stresses playing a corresponding scale without moving much from the chord. I admit I have to think about positions in flat keys or when improvising on a tune I don't know and/or that has lots of chords or modulations. At the other extreme, when I play the blues I don't have to think at all, let alone what position I'm in! Originally Posted by christianm77
It's all about how well you know the fretboard and the melody of the tune you're playing. There comes a point where you can change positions instinctively without much thought.
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I don't know when it happened -- many, many years ago, but I don't think about grips, positions or arpeggios specifically. I mean OK, yes a bit. But when you - I - practiced and applied scales/arpeggios across the neck, not specifying location but as one entity, the neck grew into itself. The next note I play is related to the one I just played. I don't move unless I have to. Or I do. And sometimes its all over the place, but not because I have to. And it's a bit of a misnomer - FOR ME - to say arpeggios. I rarely, rarely play them and haven't practiced them for many years. But I see the frame work and play around them, substitutions as well. It takes awhile to get this down.
But when you listen to Dexter or Bird or Miles. They rarely PLAY arpeggios -- or scales, but they're there, in the background. But actually playing them on changes sounds kind of lame. To me.
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Hey Henry, do you as a teacher get your students playing scales and arpeggios and then later teach various way to embellish them? Is that how you develop what you describe as seeing the framework and working around it? Thanks!
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Yes. I have to take each student individually though because most don't have that kind of patience. So along the way I have exercises where they can apply improv with enclosures, phrases, blues and II-V patterns all laid out on the neck along the framework. But ideally I'd do the scales then lay the arpeggios, starting with THE TRIADS - including all sus, dim, +/flat 5, then on to the 7ths as part and parcel with the scales. It's crucial to SEE THEM AS ONE THING and not separate from each other Originally Posted by joe2758
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I only think about positions when I'm sight reading. When I'm soloing, I close my eyes and don't open them until the solo's over.
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Yeah I agree. They play lines... A mix of stuff when you break it down, a melody when you don't... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I've been learning the fretboard for around 10 years now. I still cannot see it as a one big grid. I often start every day from a "blank page" when I have to recall the arpeggio and scale patterns, to see how they connect and so on. Originally Posted by smokinguit
I wonder how many people are on my part of the learning curve after considerable amount of everyday practicing over the years.
Loosers usually don't boast
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