Is it possible to improvise solo without thinking about positions at all?

[Jonah]

I found it really difficult to learn a scale in multiple positions and, based on knowing how to play the scale from the 6th string up, be able to find the notes in the interior of the scale - when I needed them. I just couldn't memorize the geometry that well. For me, it came easier to learn the note names and the fingerboard.

easy to overcome it is playing scales in various intervals

like in 4ths

G-C, A-D, B-E etc.

or step by step
G-A, G-B, G-C...

Also after basic arps are fixed well in position (triad, 7th chord, 13 chord arps, triad through 2nd arp)

you may play arps from every step in the same position as far as position allows
example Gmaj7 in 2nd position

G-B-D-F#-G-B-D-F#-G
A-C-E-G-A-C-A-G-A
B-D-F#-A-B-D-F#-A
G-C-E-G-B-C-E-G
F#-A- D- F#-A-C-D-F#-A
G-B-D-E-G-B-D-E-G
F#-A-C-E-F#-A-C-E-F#-A

Then you do it with A-7 in 4th position (Dorian)...

Soon you will notice that you can connect the same scale through all the positions easily

[christianm77]

Thinking about it. The seven position stuff is good if you have or are interested in developing a legit left hand technique. You have to stretch.

On the other hand if you minimise stretches you will end up with fewer useable positions at least for arpeggios - or you will focus on more diagonal playing.

As discussed elsewhere at great length, both approaches are in use, with the second category dominating the historically significant players, and the latter more prevalent but not at all exclusive along contemporary guitarists.

Personally in theory I am a fan of minimising stretches in favour of shifts in melody playing. I think it sounds better. In practice however I play the way I play.

As a teacher I teach legit position playing to beginners because know how it works as a methodology and it works for everyone. But if someone comes to me with a technique that they already use and seems basically sound I try and work with that.

[Jonah]

Position playing is good as a first pass for sight reading and develops fretboard knowledge. Good thing to practice.

Few of my favourite players appear to playing in conventional positions when it's time to solo though.

As any systematic approach it is not for playing music but for praticing something

When I play music I do not think of positions at all...
but if I had had video to analyze it after that... I am almost sure that I could trace position approach as basis behind it... how the hand moves, instinctive fingering preferred etc.

But probably this comes with time... besides I dedicated special time to connecting positions fluently... and also I practiced some other approaches for a while like CAGED, 3-fingers patterns, diagonal fingering...
'Vice versa' - when you start th lowest note in highest position and then move diagonally down the neck to the highst note

I think it all sums up in musical after all

By the way I slide and shift a lot all over the neck.. so position is not restriction for this at all.

[NSJ]

Thinking about it. The seven position stuff is good if you have or are interested in developing a legit left hand technique. You have to stretch..

Freedom from position= developing complete left and independence. Developing left hand independence starts by learning to play the chromatic scale starting with each finger of the left hand (1,2,3, and 4), which will itself require stretching as necessary.

[bobby d]

OK, I'm keeping an open mind and plan to work on arpeggios in all seven positions. I think it's a good idea as long as one has long enough fingers to handle 5 fret stretches without pain.

But Joe Pass didn't have long fingers and said if something hurts, don't do it! Eb maj7 arps on the 1st position (first finger on fret one) may not be feasible for some of us and the same arpeggios can be played in the next position with only 4 frets of stretching.

I wouldn't ask a pianist with small hands to play stride. It only works with large hands.

[henryrobinett]

I almost never stretch between my 3rd and 4th fingers. I open up my stretch between the 1st and 2nd. IOW with two whole steps on one string I find it's more efficient to play it 1 - 2 - 4 rather than 1 - 3 - 4. This opens up the hand rather than contracts it.

[Jonah]

But Joe Pass didn't have long fingers and said if something hurts, don't do it! Eb maj7 arps on the 1st position (first finger on fret one) may not be feasible for some of us and the same arpeggios can be played in the next position with only 4 frets of stretching.

I do not have long fingers too... but I stretch easily... Though I could not at the beginning... it depends on physiology maybe..

About pain... as much as I agree with Joe Pass I still think that there's some physical pain in practice onne should be able to overcome. You just have to to be able to identify... little pain from stretching at teh beginning is normal (as well as for beginning ballet dancer))) - just I would not overdo this.

Anyway I would not insist on it.. there are of course options with no stretches at all

[Jonah]

I find it's more efficient to play it 1 - 2 - 4 rather than 1 - 3 - 4. This opens up the hand rather than contracts it.

It makes sence... but for me it depends on context. Physically I do not see any difference between both...

1-2-4 is stronger because 3-4 fingers are much weaker in stretch...

But from point of view of technique for me playing 1-2-4 could probably mean that I am going to change position (going up for example, it's like preaparing the hand for shifting)...
and playing 1-3-4 most probably means I am staying in the sameposition and stretching out... basically of course, not necessarily so in every case

[matt.guitarteacher]

I almost never stretch between my 3rd and 4th fingers. I open up my stretch between the 1st and 2nd. IOW with two whole steps on one string I find it's more efficient to play it 1 - 2 - 4 rather than 1 - 3 - 4. This opens up the hand rather than contracts it.

I would wonder if this is near-consensus. Many who I've seen who develop their own arrive at this. Besides you, Reg, Rosenwinkel, and of course William Leavitt.

Richie Zellon does a lot of 4th finger stretches... I'm sure there are others...

I have pretty small hands, and 4th finger stretches aren't practical. With a slight violinist's angle, 1st finger is very doable.

[henryrobinett]

This overall subject is very near and dear to my heart. NOT THINKING for me has been the goal as a jazz musician. You HAVE to have done your thinking though, years before, in most cases. I've played with some great musicians who agree with me, some who don't. Sometimes my playing is well focused and defined, other times it's vague and rambling. I'm not sure whether this has anything to do with it, or everything. Some players think a lot and sometimes you can tell, other times it's seamless. I BELIEVE we're talking two different things when they tell me they think while playing.

One MUST know one's tools like the back of one's hands. You cannot think about positions, CAGED or 7 scale patterns, modes, arpeggios, how the tunes goes, or anything.

I refer to LOOKING rather than thinking. THINKING supposes you have computational decisions to make. 486 multiplied by 17. I have to figure that out. If you have to figure out how a C7b9b13 is spelled you're thinking. When you think you're pushed out of the zone. I look at the fretboard and I see that chord, or arpeggio. I just see the notes. Knowing I have to play that chord or a sequence of chords, I'm looking not thinking. It's like driving to work. If I've gone there a few 100 times I no longer have to think about the route. I just drive and look at the traffic and the speedomoter. It's the same thing with playing.

For intermediate or beginning students it's a bit illogical. They HAVE to think about what it is they're doing. You cannot short cut this. But you can make intuitive playing another drill. I think there are multiple drills or practice routines you have to do. And you have to practice the tools, the scales, arpeggios, chords, songs, exercise, every day like your life depended on it. Then eventually you'll be able to see the fretboard without thinking about it. So ultimately you should never THINK about positions whatsoever. Ultimately.

[rpjazzguitar]

The stretchiest guitarist I've seen up close is Guinga, the Brazilian composer/guitarist. This refers to his chording -- he isn't a jazz player and doesn't solo.

But, Joni Mitchell did a great job chording as well -- all based on compensating for a physically weak left hand due to childhood illness. She uses simple shapes and gets the great voicings by using alternative tunings.

Well, maybe not applicable, because they aren't so-called "well-rounded" jazz musicians.

But, the fact is that Wes played his single note lines with 3 fingers. Apparently, he shifted position a lot. In the videos I've seen he doesn't seem to stretch all that much.

As an aside, I'm not really clear how Wes did it. It's hard to get, say, West Coast Blues up to speed with 3 fingers. Apparently, I'm missing something about how he fingered it.

And, of course, Django wailed with 2 fingers.

Tal Farlow reportedly had huge hands. Joe Pass did not have huge hands. I don't see stretching as a necessity, although it might make some lines easier to play. My impression is that, for many players, the bottleneck is in the right hand and that perhaps the major benefit of stretching is to allow for more fluid pick movement where its needed.

[NSJ]

I think practicing lines moving up minor thirds ( e.g., C to Eb to Gb to A to C etc, i.e., imaging any chord as if it were a diminished chord, with its attendant minor third symmetry; Jack Zucker has an article about it on his SOS website called "the 12 tone theory of chord subs: Duophonics") is a great way to practice using the 1st and 4th fingers to as anchor points to start new lines associated with these chords that are moving up minor thirds.

E.g., play something in Cm with the 1st finger on C on the 3rd fret, 5th string; when ready to move to Eb, you can already use the 4th finger as the anchor (6th fret, 5th string). When you switch strings to string 4 to move to Gbm, you can use the 1st finger as anchor there and the 4th finger to anchor the Aminor--that doesn't mean you to mechanically start on the note that names these chords, just use the 1st and 4th fingers as anchors to situate where you are within the line.

Just thinking aloud here as I druther away in front of a computer desk on the 27th floor overlooking the Chicago River, dreaming of paying down some bills.....

[christianm77]

The stretchiest guitarist I've seen up close is Guinga, the Brazilian composer/guitarist. This refers to his chording -- he isn't a jazz player and doesn't solo.

But, Joni Mitchell did a great job chording as well -- all based on compensating for a physically weak left hand due to childhood illness. She uses simple shapes and gets the great voicings by using alternative tunings.

Well, maybe not applicable, because they aren't so-called "well-rounded" jazz musicians.

But, the fact is that Wes played his single note lines with 3 fingers. Apparently, he shifted position a lot. In the videos I've seen he doesn't seem to stretch all that much.

As an aside, I'm not really clear how Wes did it. It's hard to get, say, West Coast Blues up to speed with 3 fingers. Apparently, I'm missing something about how he fingered it.

And, of course, Django wailed with 2 fingers.

Tal Farlow reportedly had huge hands. Joe Pass did not have huge hands. I don't see stretching as a necessity, although it might make some lines easier to play. My impression is that, for many players, the bottleneck is in the right hand and that perhaps the major benefit of stretching is to allow for more fluid pick movement where its needed.

Yeah, I would say that I am of the school that stretches are never necessary in single note melody playing.

So many great players have essentially avoided stretches and been 'shifters' instead.

Chordal/counterpoint players have to stretch though.

In any case I do think you have this dichotomy in classical playing as well - how you finger a piece is a result of the musical effect you want to achieve.