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I've got all positions of the major/minor scale down and can drop in to it at any spot comfortably.
I'm trying to devote time to becoming as familiar with melodic minor and harmonic minor across the entire neck--as it stands today I can do a two octave shape from the root for melodic minor, harmonic minor, altered, and lydian dominant (i.e. I know the intervals, but can't extrapolate that across the entire next gracefully in an ad-hoc fashion). So, I can visualize the intervals off whatever note I anchor, but I think that when people want to burn, they go to familiar patterns and aren't conceptualizing the patterns on the fly and have the underlying patterns known cold across the neck in the various positions.
Is it common for most jazz guitarists to have all the positions of the melodic minor scale (and perhaps harmonic minor) up the neck cold, or do people feel time is better spent on other visualizations/memorizations?
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02-14-2016 04:36 PM
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yes, its pretty common. The major scale, the 3 minor scales and the symmetric scales, which are the diminished and whole tone. Those are the scales most guys have practiced. Some guys throw in the modes of all the major and minor scales, too.
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I don't know about most but I've had them all down cold for about 35 years. I think it's crucially important.
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I never counted! By down cold does that just mean up and down the scale? Or, the ability to play any note in any given scale anywhere on the neck at any time? I'm still working on all the positions of melodic minor myself (alternate etc). Harmonic minor isn't an important scale to me, and it can be managed by altering one note of the melodic minor anyway.
As for the symmetrical diminished, I've figured out a couple of patterns but there's still some confusion because the patterns change depending on which string you start on, and whether you start with the half step or whole step.
There are a couple of gypsy scales that I've never bothered to use, so they aren't memorized at all. Also some other exotic scales that I haven't bothered with i.e. some of Alan Holdsworth's.
The whole tone scale (and chromatic) is pretty easy to see no matter what part of the fretboard. Pentatonics in 5 positions, no problem! Diatonic patterns were all memorized loooooong ago.
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All of them, meaning the chromatic scale.
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Originally Posted by stevehollx
the MM is a very important scale in jazz..think of it as a major scale-with a flat third..I use it ALOT..it has many uses other than just a scale..but some ways to increase its availability at any given point on the neck..play the chords of the scale as arpeggios then start the scale from any note in that arp..when you have that down-displace each note in the arp by an octave..for me the beauty of the MM is that it has for the 6th and 7th chords of the scale-a mi7b5...so in the key of C that would be Ami7b5 & Bmi7b5..now I think of these chords as Dom 9ths (no root) F9 & G9--so if you know your 9th arps and their inversions- it will add to your fretboard navigation..also they can also be viewed as minor 6th chords..Cmi6 and Dmi6..and B7b9#5 and C#7b9#5..so they could be perfect chords to launch the C MM and the D MM ..
Do this kind of stuff in several keys-if not all of em-and the fretboard is going to be a very friendly place..
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When I took classical guitar lessons for about four years from the age of eleven or twelve, we used the Segovia edition of Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. Which extended practically to around the fifteenth fret limited only by the lack of a cutaway. I used to also harmonize the scales which was a great practice in term of harmony and voice leading.
I have never practiced any other form of scales as I don't think in terms of scales when I play, but rather I use my ears. In that sense, as Ronjazz noted, you might as well say it is the 12 tone chromatic scale. Because I don't "limit" myself in terms of note pools whether modal or otherwise. If you feel comfortable playing any note on the fret board, there is no reason to think in terms of scales. But I know that generations of jazz players love to practice every scale in the book thinking it will make them a better player, a concept that I am partly skeptical about. Any scalar practice is good for your technique, but unless you can translate that into actual music, I believe the value is limited.
Just my opinion and the force shields are up to deflect incoming. And we have it on repeated assertion that Segovia's version of scales are completely useless for jazz as the fret board is actually totally different on jazz guitars. Bet you didn't know that....
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Originally Posted by targuit
When I took classical guitar lessons for about four years from the age of eleven or twelve, we used the Segovia edition of Major and Minor Diatonic Scales. Which extended practically to around the fifteenth fret limited only by the lack of a cutaway. I used to also harmonize the scales which was a great practice in term of harmony and voice leading.
I have never practiced any other form of scales as I don't think in terms of scales when I play, but rather I use my ears. In that sense, as Ronjazz noted, you might as well say it is the 12 tone chromatic scale. Because I don't "limit" myself in terms of note pools whether modal or otherwise. If you feel comfortable playing any note on the fret board, there is no reason to think in terms of scales. But I know that generations of jazz players love to practice every scale in the book thinking it will make them a better player, a concept that I am partly skeptical about. Any scalar practice is good for your technique, but unless you can translate that into actual music, I believe the value is limited.
Just my opinion and the force shields are up to deflect incoming. And we have it on repeated assertion that Segovia's version of scales are completely useless for jazz as the fret board is actually totally different on jazz guitars. Bet you didn't know that....
Well, scales are, like anything, a grounding pattern.
For my tastes, the built in position shifts in the Segovia scales aren't as useful for jazz. I want to be able to grab any scale pattern I want without the shifting.
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Great , and pretty mindblowing too Wolf Originally Posted by wolflen
on the last two subs
are they no root chords too ?
ie
B7b9#9 no root and C#7b9#5no root
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I know the major scale all over the fretboard and in all keys. Learning any other scale can be simplified by looking at the major scale as a reference point, all you have to do is adjust the ears and fingers. To get the chromatic scale just add five notes in between the major scale. All the modes of the major scale use the same notes with different tonality. Only thing you have to do is adjust your ears in in order to hear what the tonal center is. Harmonic minor is Aeolian mode (6th degree of the major scale) with a raised 7th. Melodic minor (jazz) looks just like the major scale, as wolflen mentioned, but with a flatted third. For the pentatonic you just take away a few notes so that you are left with five. I can go on and on.
Last edited by smokinguit; 02-17-2016 at 06:27 PM.
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correct...no root... Originally Posted by pingu
my approach to scales and the chords they generate is to see them as "multi-key" vehicles..many players use this concept in forming their improv lines .. its a wild ride in the beginning because its like a house of mirrors..at a point your not sure what image (tonal center) your in and can get a bit lost as to how to "get out"..but with practice
and ALOT of it..you find ways to navigate and you don't let momentary "bumps" stop your lines or the chords you use..
Ben Monder, Ted Greene, Alan Holdsworth, Joe Diorio and others have used this approach in some ( or alot) of their playing
I became fascinated with it as I studied symmetric harmony (diminished and augmented) and realized within these structures there are several "keys" that can be accessed simultaneously .. so when I see F7 for example I also see Ab7 B7 and D7 as part of it..and extend that line of thinking further..treat those chords as a V7 of their keys and use their I Maj7 also..then experiment further and see what other chords in each key may be used or implied in creating an improvised line..the source of material is immense as you discover how to connect unrelated chords with just a "one note away" technique .. in other words you are using the chromatic scale to connect chords and lines that are in different keys (and hopefully) create something that is coherent to the ear..
for me the challenge now is forming chords that embody function and ambiguity .. Monder and Holdsworth seem to be born with this talent..but the real key is to experiment with intervals and let the sound of the chord be the main idea..and name it after-if at all-in other words harmonic rules are set aside and all concepts are equal at this point..playing lines over these chords is not the essential goal..as some of the chords enable "free style" lines to be used without consequence
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Dunno. Originally Posted by stevehollx
It's something I'm working on at present. I think scales in all positions help. But positions itself is a bit of a limited idea, just for starters. I want the neck to be one big position.
The idea of a chord scale itself is a simplification. While all notes of the dorian sound good against a minor chord, for example, there's a difference between the feeling of the 9th and the 5th say. Not all notes are equal. Why not choose a 6 note scale, or a 5 note one? Or just the chord tones?
You may find yourself drawn to a different method of organisation.
If you really don't want to work on it and feel drawn to some other area of study I don't think it's wrong. I doubt Charlie Christian knew the melodic minor in all positions and he's still better than everyone on this forum.
The areas of learning you feel drawn towards are valid in themselves. Scales are just note choices anyway, and that's the easy bit.Last edited by christianm77; 02-17-2016 at 08:51 PM.
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I'm in the same position of solidifying melodic minor in multiple (for me 7) positions. After a lot of time discussing in another thread with Reg, I'm addressing it now more the way he talks about. If you know major, just modify the one note (b3rd) for melodic minor. Also, coming more from the point of view of addressing them as 7 modes of MM from the 6th string roots for each scale degree, instead of thinking melodic minor key-center roots, wherever they fall on multiple strings, is somehow mentally much more freeing. It makes sense, anyway, since you're not usually using melodic minor as "functional" melodic minor anyway. Originally Posted by stevehollx
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<Slonimsky states in the Introduction of "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns," "There are 479,001,600 possible combinations of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale. > From a review of one of those complete compendiums of scales from around the world.
I'd rather study the music of Messiaen.
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The minor 7th arpeggio, which is almost the same as a minor pentatonic scale, is pretty easy to visualize and it's good for getting up and down the neck quickly. And the minor 7th is very substitutable; you can practically play it over any chord, once you know which minor 7th to use.
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Here's how I would go about this if I was a total beginner :
-Learn the major scale, in five positions using the 5 CAGED shapes.
-Learn five chord shapes (one for each position) for each basic type : major, minor, dominant, minor b5.
-Associate each of the chord shapes with its corresponding scale : major for major chords, dorian for minor, mixolydian for dominant and locrian for minor b5. Since you already know your major scale shapes, this will be very easy (each of these modes are derived from it). Doing this gives you complete coverage of the fingerboard, and having chord shapes as a reference is crucial. You should immediately see the corresponding scale each time you grab a chord.
Some other commonly used scales like bebop scales and lydian dominant can very easily be learned by just adding one note to the major scale shapes.
-Now would be the time to learn the melodic minor scale, by simply altering one note in the major scale shapes you already know (the major third becomes a minor third).
-Now associate each altered dominant chord shape (five shapes as a reference point, like before) with the corresponding altered scale : just play the melodic minor up a half step (ex : if you want to play the D altered scale, you would play D# melodic minor).
All these steps cover a big part of the sounds that are oftenly used in jazz improvisation.
I think that it's the most direct and simple way to get the fundamentals down and I wish I had learned that way from the start.Last edited by Nabil B; 02-21-2016 at 07:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Hi Matt, very interesting, would you be kind enough to run that by me again, Also, coming............... anyway.
and if you could tell me where i find the other thread with Reg, I be gratefull,
really valuable, i did not grasp it. Thx Durban.
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Forum search "reg thread live at the speed of jazz". Maybe put "at the speed of jazz "in quotation marks as well And filter by title or "posts started by " and "reg". I gotta run. Busy day.
a lot of discussion on this stuff in one of those last arpeggios threads as well. The way I wish I had done it all along. I'll check in later. Reg is back in town as well.
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I think once you have the basic positions down to a reasonable degree it's a good idea to start extending them upwards and downwards on various strings. Once you can do this, I like the random note exercise in the Julian Lage video that he attributes to Gary Burton.
BTW.. Started off my practice today with a very slow random notes A dorian mode all across the neck with the metronome at 15bpm, one note per click. A very soothing, meditative exercise once you get into it.
I think I might start my day with variations on this for the next few weeks...
Works a lot of things - for example your legato - how short can you get the gap between notes - particularly challenging on shifts.
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[QUOTE=christianm77;622106]I think once you have the basic positions down to a reasonable degree
Hi Christianm, not certain if your post was in relation to mine.
I seem to have a passing acquaintance with scales, but dont really use them much. I use it like a ladder, whereby i know where the bottom and top rung are, and try to play whats in my head, I was really hoping someone would clarify this instead of thinking melodic minor key-center roots, wherever they fall on multiple strings,
There is a short clip of me playing, a tune just goofing really, plenty altered dominants, no real Diminished harmony, I seem to be able to negotiate the heavy traffic, fairly relaxed, I hope this does not seem "assy", and appreciate your help, I wanted to see the thing REG said, but did not know how to find it.
tend not to use modes, but think of them as a different tonal centre. With scales i am not too concerned with them, it is easier to know what every note sounds like against a tonal area,
eg Typical modal tunes say C Dorian mode its, certainly not BbMajor for me. again MelodicMin / Altered is a specific
sound, I dont think of Altered as 7 mode of MM, although it is.
There is endless stuff on this, Altered does not sound like a melodic minor scale, the MM is only a reference,
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in the past, I always thought of G major, for example, in terms of the relationship of everything to G in whatever position I was in. Well, the note G is in a different location, relative to your fingers, in each position, and it's on a different string. Reg does it a different way. He references knowing where things are and spatial relationships on the fretboard, within a given position, to the second-finger-note on the sixth string...instead of to roots of key centers, like you would find in William Levitt's book or others. Originally Posted by Durban
It seems a small distinction until you really get down into examining it. When you start to look at things this way, you realize how the physical relationships of the pitches on the fretboard are CONSTANT with regard to key signature, key at the moment, chord of the moment etc.
For example, G, on the fourth string, 5th fret is always in the same place in relationship to A on the sixth string, 5th fret, regardless of whether you're playing A Mixolydian, a Dorian, A Aolian, A Phrygian etc. etc. and of course, all of their major or minor key parent scales. In the end, it would actually be an extra step or two to reorient to a different rooot every time the key signature changes.
Why not just reference things to what you're already aware of at the moment? If your reference is a fixed, given pitch in the same position relative to your fingers, you have a constant physical reference which doesn't inhibit at all your UNDERSTANDING of where the roots ARE, while retaining the sense of physical connection to a CONSTANT.
Kind of like on the piano, you always know where C is , and at the same time, you may be aware of its being the root or the third etc. of a given key. One thought doesn't interfere with the other. Of course, on the piano, we actually BEGIN with the PHYSICAL reference BEFORE we really even know anything. On the guitar, we mostly do it backwards, using theory and knowledge of key centers to even FIND pitches up the fretboard. At least that's the way I see it often presented.
Here's the thread:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/22914-regs-thread-live-speed-jazz-post238326.htmlLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-22-2016 at 10:42 AM.
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It wasn't in fact, just general musing based on my own experiences. Originally Posted by Durban
I don't really understand the second paragraph - can you rephrase it? Sounds interesting.
Your self assessment is good enough - I think after a while of playing, especially on gigs etc, you know whether you are on top of something or not. Originally Posted by Durban
FWIW there's loads of stuff I feel I am not on top of and I think this will always be true. For a few years it was simply not relevant for me to master the altered scale in all positions. I was aware of altered scale harmony but it basically informed my choice of subs and I remained a chord tone based swing and bop improviser. Loads of people knew their scales better than me, but they were playing different types of music.
More recently I've become more interested in intervallic modal sounds for both harmony and chords & counterpoint, so I've started working on scales again.
There's not necessarily a right or wrong way to hear things. It's all based on your background and natural tendencies. Sometimes rather like the duck and rabbit picture, your way of hearing something might switch and then you can't get it back. I find this rather fun. Originally Posted by Durban
Last edited by christianm77; 02-22-2016 at 01:34 PM.
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In Allan Holdsworth's video he goes over his 10 scales. I did a screenshot of his pic of the D melodic minor scale covering the entire neck. This way I can look at a hard copy of it and get use to the patterns - and go for random notes within the scale, in different positions. In a few minutes a day of doing this I'll have it pretty well down. Then there will only be 11 keys to go for that scale!
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You could maybe do the randomised/interleaved practice thing - 3 short (3-5min) bursts of practicing a day on this, apparently more effective over the long term than one long session. Originally Posted by bobby d
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