Soloing: Little Phrases vs. Streaming Long 8th Note Lines

[AlsoRan]

Being an analytical type of person I began to dissect Jazz solos that don't move me. In short, it appears that I prefer Jazz solos that mix short phrases with longer lines. I don't seem to warm up to long streams of 8th notes at medium tempos. After a while, the solo seems to be like a long, plodding march, except in the cases of those that are really imaginative and exceptional.

It probably comes from my traditional Blues background. Blues by guys like T-Bone Walker and others, as most of you know, have that vocal quality like they are talking, not going on a long jog. And there is more repetition, which I also like a certain amount of.

So considering this, I want to shape my soloing to reflect little phrases with different syncopations.

Now, at fast tempos, I love the long, "machine-gun" 8th-note lines.

What do you think?

[NSJ]

Here's how I think about it: slow playing is melodic playing (usually of a quarter note value or slower) containing all the important target notes. The slower note value creates a feeling that these notes are being emphasized or targeted.

Fast playing is often arpeggiated embellishments or chromatic-neighbor approach notes ( usually eighth notes or Doubletime or triplets ) that adds something -- A certain dynamic, excitement, countour , or enhancement ---to the essential melodic playing .

I try to practice both within a single phrase, so it becomes an integrated whole.

[AlsoRan]

Here's how I think about it: slow playing is melodic playing (usually of a quarter note value or slower) containing all the important target notes. The slower note value creates a feeling that these notes are being emphasized or targeted.

Fast playing is often arpeggiated embellishments or chromatic-neighbor approach notes ( usually eighth notes or Doubletime or triplets ) that adds something -- A certain dynamic, excitement, countour , or enhancement ---to the essential melodic playing .

I try to practice both within a single phrase, so it becomes an integrated whole.

Thanks for that insight. You are right, IMHO.

[AlsoRan]

So now, I wonder if you folks try to consciously capture both elements in your solos? Or are you happier sticking with streaming witty, well-crafted 8th notes. Which hey, I have heard several songs from Dexter Gordon that did just that and they were nice.

[Thecytochromec]

I like hearing rests. If I can hear it and get it into my mind it's like I learned a new lick.

[AlsoRan]

I like hearing rests. If I can hear it and get it into my mind it's like I learned a new lick.

I like that. You could say that rests are another way of connecting phrases and lines.

[Nate Miller]

obviously we want to do both, but when would you do one or the other?

what I mean is in what context would you think the long line, and when would you look to break it up?

[AlsoRan]

obviously we want to do both, but when would you do one or the other?

what I mean is in what context would you think the long line, and when would you look to break it up?

That is probably the rub of what makes a good solo, at least to my ears at their present state of development.

I heard a Blue Bossa recording by a Sax player and it was endless 8th notes at a medium tempo. I started to feel a little fatigued about halfway through and that was when I realized I wanted the "monotony" broken up.

Personally, I am drawn to songs like Grant Green's I'll Remember April. He plays some relatively long 8th note lines, several short rakes, some phrases that are a single note that is slid into.

This is want I want to emulate in my solos and I recognize some aspect of this in all of my favorite recorded solos.

These attributes keep me engaged - especially after hearing several songs in a row.

[Nate Miller]

That is probably the rub of what makes a good solo, at least to my ears at their present state of development.

yea, that's sort of the Socratic Method right there.

I have thoughts on the matter, but so do all of us. I'm sort of interested in what folks have to say about this subject

It may be that it is just hard to put into words. but I'm like you...I like things to be mixed up.

but one thing about when and where I do what...it has nothing to do with the chord changes at the present moment

[AlsoRan]

But one thing about when and where I do what...it has nothing to do with the chord changes at the present moment

Now this statement is interesting because it goes at the heart of a lot of Jazz pedagogy and tradition.

That may be a thread in and of itself - reacting to chord changes vs. imparting your own mood on a song by ignoring them.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Probably takes a little more skill to play endless eighths and have them be musical. It also takes a little more experience with hearing to understand what's going on as a listener, kind of like listening to Bach fugues the first time or something. They certainly aren't monotonous, but it takes some listening to hear the patterns etc.

Keith Jarrett is one my favorites (especially in the standards trio), although i really didn't like his playing as much when I first started listening to a little jazz. Too many of those long runs you're talking about.... I guess I really got into him with a couple of his ballads , where he really makes use of space. He really does SPACE as well as anyone, I think.

Anyway, the longer runs make more sense as you listen to them, kind of like listening to the Bach fugues. With really good players, there are complex harmonic and melodic rhythms implied by changes of direction, enclosures, repetition etc. Actually, it might be good exercise to think about what you can imply and say rhythmically, when the note values are constant. Of course, you'd probably have to have pretty good chops in the first place to start with that.

[mr. beaumont]

Miles said, "When they play fast, you play slow. When they play slow, you play fast."

Or something like that...I hate when people just reurgitate "famous people wisdom," but I thought this was fitting...

It's about balance, creating tension, release, either a short statement or a longer "story arc."

Most great solos have that balance, although a cat like Frisell or Hall might scratch the fast and create density a different way...

[Nate Miller]

that "story arc" is what I'm talking about

I don't run everywhere I go just because I can. I only run when I need to. Otherwise I stroll, I walk, I promenade...

you know, the older I get, the more I find that I have a different approach for each tune.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah...the story arch thing is common "wisdom," I guess, but sometimes a solo spot is shorter...I don't think it always has to follow the whole story thing...and unlike a story, where there's falling action after the climax, some times it's cool to end with some FURY.

But if you listen to say, Wes, he kinda had a story "outline" he used...and though it's a formula, I never tire of it because he told that story so damn good.

[Nate Miller]

I had a friend that played sax and he talked about his solos being like a bridge. He started out in the changes, took it out somewhere and then came back. Like walking over a bridge

I think more in textures. I see the long line as a texture, the chordy stuff as a texture, short angular phrases as a texture, ...so I'm working on mixing these things together. Putting these textures and harmonic ideas together in a way that makes sense in the context of the tune

so to me, playing the long line is just one more thing in the Dr Nate Bag of Tricks.

[christianm77]

I don't think there are any absolutes here, but from a process point of view, I found what Hal Galper said about improvisation was really interesting, and has kind of stuck with me...

The first step to learning to improvise is to learn to hear everything - you will as a result play everything.
The second step - which is harder - is learning to hear everything and only play some of it.

With my own playing, I feel that when I am working without chords, it's really nice when I break up single note lines with chord work, but in practice I don't do this nearly enough - the reason is simply that I find it hard to stop a line when I've started. So I feel this is the next step in my playing.

I tend to like musicians that play phrases - phrases can be any length, but to me, a constant stream of notes all the time is an indication that a musician is perhaps not hearing that way.

[Nate Miller]

that process of hearing everything and only playing some of it is what I think really separates the greats from everybody else.

I remember listening to recordings of myself and I noticed that I was "taking a chorus off" a lot. I remember listening to my trio playing that old song about the photomat: "Someday My Prints Will Come"

well, in the 2nd chorus of my solo, I clearly was out of ideas. I could hear myself treading water. I thought I was about to hand it over to my bass player. Then I caught fire and blew the house down for the next 5 minutes. Would have been an awesome track, if not for the chorus of floundering around

It is all about mental discipline. I want to be sure that I am saying something at all times. Not just blowing licks until I get rolling...but really trying to make every note a good one

In my trio, we stretch out and the guys like me to take several choruses since there's just the 3 of us. So having something to say is important since the guys are counting on me to carry the tune

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

One paradigm I use is to have a conversation.

[gggomez]

I like your thinking Alsoran.

I think it brings the rhythm section forward also, good for them to really feel the groove, good for the audience to feel the groove and absorb your lines and good for you feel the groove and enhance your lines.

I told this story here before that I saw Kurt Rosenwinkel play with the Marsarlis/Lincoln Orchestra. Incredible of course. Amazing tunes and playing all night but the highlight was one note. Wynton had not taken a solo until the last. There had been lots of great solos lots of shredding and then it was like Yoda showing all the young teenagers how it is done. He stood up and blew one note and smiled. You could feel the hold band lift, the audience on the edge of their seat.

I have never heard a solo that is not a ripper where it starts off with one note. I try and do the same if a guy before me has been shredding and it just takes you to wonderful places. Play one note and listen. Then a couple more and listen. An alternate is to start with a couple of quarter notes, the same note each time is cool and then listen. For me as a beginner it helps me to really feel the music, enable me to deliver with conviction and helps me keep it interesting melodically and rhythmically.

I am really tripping on Lee Morgan's Moanin' at the moment, to me that is perfection. Nice simple early statement that gets your attention and you crave more and boy does he serve it up. The only frustrating thing about that solo is when he stops playing.