struggling with integrating melodic minor into diatonic scale shapes

[intheory]

hi folks,

been a while since i've posted here. hope everyone is doing well.

i'm basically trying to get comfortable with using the altered scale over a V7. in G for example, the difficulty for me is how few notes the G major and D altered scales have in common. the b9, #9, #11, and b13 are all non-diatonic. i'm struggling with visualizing what notes on the fretboard are available to me over the current chord in real time.

for me, the layout itself of the altered scale is difficult to visualize. most guitar players are familiar with pentatonic scale shapes -- they are our bread and butter. the major modes and blues scale can very easily be "assimilated" into these scale shapes, and so are easy to learn and cycle through on the fly. the altered scale is difficult for the same reason, that minor third/major seventh combination not occurring anywhere in the major modes. so the fingering is a bit counter-intuitive.

i've been drilling scales over a ii V loop within a single position and progress has been slow. pretty much all i've found so far are a few major 2nds that you can chromatically shift down to get from A dorian to D altered.

i'm wondering if anyone here would be so kind as to share how you mastered the melodic minor scale and its modes, on a physical and not necessarily musical level. i feel the application must come after the scale is in your fingers, and then your ears. what has your approach been?

thanks much and looking forward to everyone's replies.

kindly,
peter

edit: scale names

[dasein]

Here's how I would think of it, in the key of G:

5 G major pentatonic fingerings

Add C and F# to a major pentatonic to get your major scale fingerings

To turn those major scales into melodic minor, turn every B into Bb

To turn those major scales into harmonic minor, turn every G into G#

To turn those major scales into harmonic major, turn every A into Ab

[intheory]

thanks for the reply daesin.

i should've mentioned that i am ok at applying melodic minor over a static V7 vamp. i am struggling with applying it over a ii V I in, say G.

A dorian and G major fit nicely within a third position G major pentatonic, but if i were to use D altered over the V7 to get at all available tensions, that really throws a wrench in things. you have the b9, #9, #11, and b13 that are all non-diatonic.

i've noticed that there are a few major 2nds that you can chromatically shift down to get from A dorian to G altered, but it seems like grasping haha.

edit: scale names

[matt.guitarteacher]

thanks for the reply daesin.

i should've mentioned that i am ok at applying melodic minor over a static V7 vamp. i am struggling with applying it over a ii V I in, say G.

A dorian and C major fit nicely within a third position G major pentatonic, but if i were to use G altered over the V7 to get at all available tensions, that really throws a wrench in things. you have the b9, #9, #11, and b13 that are all non-diatonic.

i've noticed that there are a few major 2nds that you can chromatically shift down to get from A dorian to G altered, but it seems like grasping haha.

Okay. Start with the diatonic ones, the roots and third. Altered scales don't make sense on paper. You really have to listen other players play some lines. Look at the altered lessons on this site or Matt Warnock's. Learn some licks .

For me, it was really difficult to learn to hear them at first, because I was doing it on paper . The easiest way in my opinion to hear altered , in the beginning, is to start with a mixolydian line which leads to altered on the weak beat or side of the beat. Watch reg's videos for examples.

Dorian straight into altered is probably the harder one to play, if you're not used to it. At the very least, starting from that diatonic third or root would probably help.

[vintagelove]

Here are some possibilities, enjoy!!!

P.S. Don't forget lots of folks think of the ii V as one big tension, so altered (or any dom sound) works over the whole thing.

Melodic Minor Subs
over G7 (any dominant) chord, use melodic minor (minmaj7arp)
1/2 above (Ab) = 7th mode super loc/alt
ws below (F) = 2nd mode Dorian susb2
up 4th (C) = 5th mode mixolydian b6
up 5th (D) = 4th mode lydian dom

[cosmic gumbo]

One helpful way to get the sound in your head is to hear the ii V I as ii bII I, via tritone sub. Play the changes as Am7 Ab7 Gma7 or Am7 Ab7#11 Gma7. Sometimes finding the logic in these changes is a helpful step in hearing jazz harmony and using melodic minor.

[boatheelmusic]

This may help:

How to play "outside" Vol I-4

[jzucker]

I would also recommend copying some pat martino. He uses melodic minor off the 5th b9 and b7 of a dom7 chord.

[jzucker]

Or better yet, copy some coltrane off the "Lush Life" album which is where Pat Martino stole much of his repertoire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lush_L...oltrane_album)

[jzucker]

and p.p.s....

Learn the sounds first. Let the theory come later. Copy, copy, copy and then analyze later. You want to hear it naturally, not get caught up in the theory which comes later.

[christianm77]

You know I had trouble with this for years.

I'll take the altered scale for example.

On it's own the altered scale is a really hard sound to get your head around. Personally, I ignored it for years, but over the past few years have made pretty good friends with it.

Things that helped me -

1) Transcription obviously!
2) Not look at the altered in isolation.

This means seeing the way it relates to the tonic chord. So if we take our example in C:

C --> C E G (just the triad chord tones as these are the most obvious resolutions
G7alt --> G Ab Bb B Db Eb F (so that's every note flat aside from Db and Eb)

Check out this
(B)-->Bb-->Ab-->G
Db-->B-->C
F-->Eb-->E

OK? These cadences into the I chord are really common and you see them all the time.... Sometimes there are only three or four notes over a dominant chord, so that's all you get. Added bonus is that it's easier to hear three or four notes together.

3) Using the minor triad, minor 6 and min/maj7 sounds a semitone up
A very classic way to use the altered scale. Check out the melody of a Night in Tunisia - also the B section of Hot House.

Obviously, having a minor chord under your fingers it's a short step to adding in the rest of the notes of the melodic minor, with added advantage that you are playing something much more musical than a bunch of scales.

Also - the melodic minor sounds amazing in thirds.

[christianm77]

I would also recommend copying some pat martino. He uses melodic minor off the 5th b9 and b7 of a dom7 chord.

b7 melodic minor on dominant is classic Charlie Christian. BTW. I use these three myself. The b7 sub is a bit unsung, but it's extremely common in swing and bebop music.

[intheory]

much thanks to everyone who has replied. this is all great advice.

will definitely play with the tritone sub cosmic gumbo. i couldn't get the altered scale sounding great over the V7, but over a tritone sub (G altered over Db7) it looks like i'll be getting the b5, b7, b9, and 3rd.

jzucker, i think emily remler mentioned copping a lot of her dominant 7th licks from pat and mccoy tyner too. her method is elegant but at the same time a little confusing to me (basically playing altered over major ii - Vs, and lydian b7 over non-functional dominant 7ths), because i don't hear a lot of the alterations/tensions in major ii - V comping. my ear for jazz is probably just immature though. it feels a bit like forcing a round peg into a square hole, but..

i think i can start with mapping out which altered movements already sound good to me in a given key, and then choosing the most appropriate mode of melodic minor. i like the Gmaj7 - F#7b9 movement in spain a lot, as well as the Cm9 - C7b9. i think F# altered and C altered would work well over these. altered and phrygian dominant also both seem to be effective over many of the same chords.

christianm77, thanks a lot for the advice. i'll be playing around with those chromatic movements tonight. also the augmented triad moving up from the 3rd in 3rds (3rd, b13, and root) sounds really sweet. i've definitely been messing with that and the minmaj7 arpeggio on the b9.

please caution me if i am headed towards a train wreck, haha.

[cosmic gumbo]

will definitely play with the tritone sub cosmic gumbo. i couldn't get the altered scale sounding great over the V7, but over a tritone sub (G altered over Ab7) it looks like i'll be getting the b5, b7, b9, and 3rd.

please caution me if i am headed towards a train wreck, haha.

???.....trainwreck ahead......in your OP you were mentioning G major so I assumed you were talking about a ii V I in G......Am7 D7 Gma7.... so my tritone sub was Ab7 subbing for the D7 (V7)... so we'd be talking about D7 altered sound from Ab7.

[intheory]

sorry mate, my mind's a little frazzled after drilling this stuff for hours! i definitely meant G altered over Db7 (if we're in C), but you're right, let's keep things in G for consistency. so D altered over Ab7, yeah.

thanks for the laugh haha.

[Reg]

Sorry... I'm from a different point of view... I don't believe in the keep beating it into the wall method. Although it works eventually, most of the time. The problems are you end up with lots of little or single applications... and when you try to play ... you end up having to have a incredible memory or practice all the time to keep it together.

There are lots of applications of using altered or melodic minor when playing Jazz. If you don't use MM your going to sound a little vanilla when playing jazz. That's not a bad thing, but it's not the only sound used. That older approach uses maj/min functional harmonic organization, traditional western classical approach for organizing music. It's still the basic reference for almost all music... but it's not the only approach, and over the last 50 or 60 years there have been some additions to how to organize harmony... which is basically what your doing when your using melodic minor. Traditional music use MM as an embellishment, how the music moved was still based on traditional functional harmony... the organization of the notes and which notes control the movement.

For the most part this organization can still work with the addition of expanding basic borrowing technique. Which is how most traditional music creates different chord patterns that still fit into the basic pattern of typical function or chord movement from functional music.

So you know how many tunes go to the relative minor or down a minor third for bridges etc. or up a min 3rd to maj from Min.
example... Tune is in Cmaj.... the bridge goes to A- as tonal reference, and then usually still use the basic formula for chord movement... all based on Maj. Anyway that chord motion or relationship is called Relative Min. the Min 3rd relationship common to traditional music. And if you go up to Maj from Min... Amin and bridge is in Cmaj... relative maj.

The term borrowing is generally used to imply chords from the Parallel minor or major.

That Cmaj becomes Cmin and the rest of the diatonic chords are constructed from Cminl ... the parallel minor, which we call the action borrowing. And the inverse... Cmin to Cmaj, again borrowing the harmony from the parallel maj or min.

The organization of min is traditionally the same... we use harmonic min to keep the functional or chordal movement the same. Later melodic min was used sometimes... but the organization was the same.


So in jazz we extend this use of borrowing to include any chord as the organization of none diatonic chords.... not just relative min or maj. So we can use chords constructed from root C from any mode. And we also use modal principles... different organization of which notes control function or chord movement....

Long story to get to use of MM... You can just use basic subV or subV of a subV organization to organize use of Melodic min.

Ex.... G7 to Cmaj... the sub of G7 is Db7#11... the sub of that sub would be G7alered.

Although subs are not really from maj/min functional harmony, they are based on Augmented 6th chords, which are a root, a maj. 3rd and a augmented 6th... which were use to approach V chords or 2nd inversion I chords... the added note determined which one...German add P5th, French aug 4th, Italian double the 3rd no 5th or 4th. Anyway the augmented 6th is really a b7.... so can just be a dominant chord and have dominant function. I can go on.... but who cares... long story short... we now have substitution Dominants... Sub V7 chords which generally imply Lydian b7 or Lydian dominant... whatever you want to call the chord constructed from the 4th degree of MM.

That's the somewhat traditional usage of Sub V7s... But you can also use the tritone sub of that sub V7 chord... which becomes G7 altered.

The other usage is as I was explaining above... Jazz uses the expanded versions of Borrowing.... Modal Interchange and using that organization open lots of organized applications of using altered or Lydian Dominant or even the 5th degree Mixo b13.

The other simple access to MM is through The II V... in jazz it's very common practice to have a related II- chord precede a V7 chord. The II V is basically thought of and heard as One chord. And also have a related V7 chord follow any II- chord... or any minor chord. The big word is the "Related" part. which just comes down to having some type of organization which allows the usage of the notes...

So you can use modal interchange as the organization for subbing any MM version of the II- or the V7 chord.

There is fairly common practice for which versions of subs you use... this post is getting way to long... the only other point I want to mention.... generally any chord constructed from MM can be used interchangeably with any other chord... again being aware of the tonal or modal organization going on will help this process become more common practice, even mechanical... which will allow you to actually be able to use MM as compared to MM using you.

[55bar]

Sorry... I'm from a different point of view... I don't believe in the keep beating it into the wall method. Although it works eventually, most of the time. The problems are you end up with lots of little or single applications... and when you try to play ... you end up having to have a incredible memory or practice all the time to keep it together.

There are lots of applications of using altered or melodic minor when playing Jazz. If you don't use MM your going to sound a little vanilla when playing jazz. That's not a bad thing, but it's not the only sound used. That older approach uses maj/min functional harmonic organization, traditional western classical approach for organizing music. It's still the basic reference for almost all music... but it's not the only approach, and over the last 50 or 60 years there have been some additions to how to organize harmony... which is basically what your doing when your using melodic minor. Traditional music use MM as an embellishment, how the music moved was still based on traditional functional harmony... the organization of the notes and which notes control the movement.

For the most part this organization can still work with the addition of expanding basic borrowing technique. Which is how most traditional music creates different chord patterns that still fit into the basic pattern of typical function or chord movement from functional music.

So you know how many tunes go to the relative minor or down a minor third for bridges etc. or up a min 3rd to maj from Min.
example... Tune is in Cmaj.... the bridge goes to A- as tonal reference, and then usually still use the basic formula for chord movement... all based on Maj. Anyway that chord motion or relationship is called Relative Min. the Min 3rd relationship common to traditional music. And if you go up to Maj from Min... Amin and bridge is in Cmaj... relative maj.

The term borrowing is generally used to imply chords from the Parallel minor or major.

That Cmaj becomes Cmin and the rest of the diatonic chords are constructed from Cminl ... the parallel minor, which we call the action borrowing. And the inverse... Cmin to Cmaj, again borrowing the harmony from the parallel maj or min.

The organization of min is traditionally the same... we use harmonic min to keep the functional or chordal movement the same. Later melodic min was used sometimes... but the organization was the same.


So in jazz we extend this use of borrowing to include any chord as the organization of none diatonic chords.... not just relative min or maj. So we can use chords constructed from root C from any mode. And we also use modal principles... different organization of which notes control function or chord movement....

Long story to get to use of MM... You can just use basic subV or subV of a subV organization to organize use of Melodic min.

Ex.... G7 to Cmaj... the sub of G7 is Db7#11... the sub of that sub would be G7alered.

Although subs are not really from maj/min functional harmony, they are based on Augmented 6th chords, which are a root, a maj. 3rd and a augmented 6th... which were use to approach V chords or 2nd inversion I chords... the added note determined which one...German add P5th, French aug 4th, Italian double the 3rd no 5th or 4th. Anyway the augmented 6th is really a b7.... so can just be a dominant chord and have dominant function. I can go on.... but who cares... long story short... we now have substitution Dominants... Sub V7 chords which generally imply Lydian b7 or Lydian dominant... whatever you want to call the chord constructed from the 4th degree of MM.

That's the somewhat traditional usage of Sub V7s... But you can also use the tritone sub of that sub V7 chord... which becomes G7 altered.

The other usage is as I was explaining above... Jazz uses the expanded versions of Borrowing.... Modal Interchange and using that organization open lots of organized applications of using altered or Lydian Dominant or even the 5th degree Mixo b13.

The other simple access to MM is through The II V... in jazz it's very common practice to have a related II- chord precede a V7 chord. The II V is basically thought of and heard as One chord. And also have a related V7 chord follow any II- chord... or any minor chord. The big word is the "Related" part. which just comes down to having some type of organization which allows the usage of the notes...

So you can use modal interchange as the organization for subbing any MM version of the II- or the V7 chord.

There is fairly common practice for which versions of subs you use... this post is getting way to long... the only other point I want to mention.... generally any chord constructed from MM can be used interchangeably with any other chord... again being aware of the tonal or modal organization going on will help this process become more common practice, even mechanical... which will allow you to actually be able to use MM as compared to MM using you.

Hi Reg, when you mention the no avoid notes in melodic minor and say "MM can be used interchangeably with any other chord"

What does this achieve? Does it mean that if you can see all the chords belonging to Ab MM it just opens up the neck or do mean if you know all the chords and inversions belonging to MM you can sub and re sub?

I'm confused.

Here's how I'm seeing It now but think I'm missing something.

Over 2-5-1 in C

D-7 G7 C

You can play Db7 #11 in place of the G7 this can have a 2 chord preceding it.

Ab-7

Where can I go from here? Just one simple directive?

I thought about say. Using a

Eb9 or its b5 sub A7#5 to precede the Ab-7

The A7#5 isn't from Ab MM so is that just artistic licence?

I mean you can go on looking at all these chords 5s and sub 5s right until you go up your own butt.


Am I along the right tracks?

I'm not sure how the using all the chords that belong to Ab MM thing works.

[jzucker]

wow, this thread and the accompanying advice is way too complicated. Just copy some coltrane licks from the "Lush Life" album, particularly "Just Friends". This is how martino learned it.

Fuggedabout all the ridiculously complicated advice about melodic off the b7, b2 and 5th and just copy some sounds that you like off that CD and derive your own theory.

It really isn't that complicated. Wes also copped that stuff from 'Trane.

[55bar]

wow, this thread and the accompanying advice is way too complicated. Just copy some coltrane licks from the "Lush Life" album, particularly "Just Friends". This is how martino learned it.

Fuggedabout all the ridiculously complicated advice about melodic off the b7, b2 and 5th and just copy some sounds that you like off that CD and derive your own theory.

It really isn't that complicated. Wes also copped that stuff from 'Trane.

Agreed, I'm just wanting to try and get my chord subs together, I've transcribed Lots of pat Martino, just looking for another angle.

[pingu]

Hi Reg, when you mention the no avoid notes in melodic minor and say "MM can be used interchangeably with any other chord"


I'm confused.

Here's how I'm seeing It now but think I'm missing something.

Over 2-5-1 in C

D-7 G7 C

You can play Db7 #11 in place of G7

I'm not sure how the using all the chords that belong to Ab MM thing works.

basically on the G7 you can play ANY of the
Ab mm modes (chords arps scale ideas etc) ....
and you will sound out and cool etc etc

[55bar]

basically on the G7 you can play ANY of the
Ab mm modes (chords arps scale ideas etc) ....
and you will sound out and cool etc etc

Hi cheers man, I get that, and use it all the time, I was trying to get a grip on how I might use chord subs to pull from other MM for instance.

• use a dominant II chord (D7#5#9) or (D7#11) to precede the Db sub

I think that any notes that are considered blues notes of the tonic key will be good extensions on these chords?

So (Eb Bb) F#?

Or is it the target chord for example the G7

So (F,Eb,Bb)



I can then maybe understand this stuff harmonically or in a chordal fashion rather than in a liner fashion or better still both.

I'm sort of looking for a way to organise my note choices, in the past it's been minorize everything. Now I'm looking to use chords as a sort of "template" for my lines, I want it organised and bullet proof as I can get.

I'm really enjoying everyone's input here.

•jack I had a listen to that trane album today for the first time in about 10 years and forgot how much I loved it. Thank you!

•Reg this stuff really excites me I just want to get a handle on it. Thank you for the time you are putting in.

[Reg]

There are many ways to skin a cat... and they may all work. My approach to playing is to be able to perform a new tune the 1st time I see it... that's what I do all the time. I've never really practiced... except when I was a kid. I'm busy and lazy etc...

I personally really dig Jacks playing and everything he posts... I think I always will... but that doesn't mean I want to perform in his style. I have my style... When I give advice... I try to be as general as possible... technique is one subject and when we get into theory or harmonic understanding of what we're playing... it can become very technical also. There are reasons why most just play and eventually develop an application that works. At least your actually play your instrument... etc...

Enough BS... 55
What you achieve when developing an understanding of how melodic minor can work when performing jazz... your able to repeat what you play in any situation... what your playing can be different but your able to mechanically, (like transposing) apply in any situation the organization of what your playing. You can also just use you ears... once they become good enough.

Yes that is what it does... it opens all the doors of applications of MM at once. And as I've said before I basically have ratings of which applications work best in different harmonic situations. What use of MM works best with Different Chord Patterns.

So an example...your D-7 G7 Cmaj
Your using the sub of G7 or Db7... with Lydian b7 or Lydian Dominant. So that basic relationship is with reference to G7 going to Cmaj7... standard V7 Imaj7... Your subing for a chord with Dominant function. So you still want to keep that function... the Db7 or bII7 still needs to reflect what your subing for. I'm only bring this up because... that is what I mean when saying Relative... the Db7 is still relative to the basic V7 I harmonic motion.

I don't hear or thing Abmm I'm hearing Db7#11 and all the other chords that are constructed from chord tones and extensions from that Db7#11... not Abmm. The 1st reference is still G7, my new secondary reference is Db7.

So when I use the sub of a sub... use G7altered in place of Db7... I have a few connections... G7mixo is the 1st reference,
(which uses Cmaj as reference), but I'm now using Db7 as target and using sub of the new target... the G7altered.

The G7altered...so two connections ,1) G7alt to Db7... it's typical tritone sub, 2)it has same Rt and basic relationship to Cmaj.

Now if I chose to use MM in a modal style... I have a different relationship... I'm using the characteristics of MM as the connection between Db7 and G7alt. Same collection of notes. So I base this application on Db7 lydian Dom. That's the micro target... and use the modal characteristics of MM and can sub any of the other chords constructed from Db7.

I know that it might be easier to think of Abmm... that's probable how you've been taught to think or hear.... But there is a difference between the order of relationship from each chord. Db7 is the sub of a dominant chord. Abmm is not. It generally would be approached as the related II of a Dom7th chord...

And typically... not even used. More common would be to use Dmm from a modal interchange perspective... with target relationship of D-7. More of a Sub dominant function. And again the list of application of MM would come from that reference.

So the best approach... is to take the time to actually write out all the possible relationships with all the possible targets.
It's pretty simple... I did it as a kid, hasn't changes. there are some new harmonic materials that have added to...

I'll glady help... once you go through this mechanical process... it will become instinctive and you can mix with all the other BS and use you ears and become musical etc... It's not that difficult to be aware of what your playing, just as it's not that difficult to understand the physical design of the guitar for developing performance technique.

[55bar]

Thanks for this Reg,

I don't quite know what you mean, "all possible relationships with all the possible targets"

I get that say Db7#11 has all the chords from Ab MM in it

Eb9
F-7b5
G-7b5
Ab-6
Bb-6
Cb+

Are theses anything to do with what you mean?

For instance treating those as TT, or changing them to add notes which aren't from Ab MM

Like using Eb7#11 to introduce an A natural from Bb MM


Or you do the Quartal thing harmonising up the neck approaching chords with their Dom.


Man I'm a bit lost as you can tell and I've spent all day driving north for a gig, so signing off, look forward to your reply.

Thanks again for your help.

55

[princeplanet]

wow, this thread and the accompanying advice is way too complicated. Just copy some coltrane licks from the "Lush Life" album, particularly "Just Friends". This is how martino learned it.

Fuggedabout all the ridiculously complicated advice about melodic off the b7, b2 and 5th and just copy some sounds that you like off that CD and derive your own theory.

It really isn't that complicated. Wes also copped that stuff from 'Trane.

Huh? I thought Just Friends was off Coltrane Time....?

[Reg]

Hey 55... just making sure you know when I said enough BS... it was about me writing to much BS, had nothing to do with you, when I reread etc...

The all relationships with all possible targets.... is just the mechanical numbers game...


The D-7 G7 Cmaj7 progression.

The 1st set of targets would be the actual chords, D-7 G7 Cmaj7 , each chord can be a target, or D-7 G7 as one target and Cma7 as another etc...

The relationships are how and what I use to create relationships with any of those targets... relationships are subs, any related chords, diatonic or expanded diatonic relationships, modal relationships.. anything you use to expand the basic chord.

I always try and be aware of a basic analysis.... Dominant to Tonic... subdominant dominant tonic, subdominant tonic...

And then you move on the the 2nd level of targets... all the 1st set of relationships can become new targets.... example being sub of a sub.

Personally the better organized your understanding becomes of what you play...which eventually becomes instinctive... anyway... there are a few benefits,
... you develop a better feel for what works best in different settings... the 1st time you perform.
... really helps create better harmonic grooves... the spatial balance of your harmonic playing.
... you can hear what other players are playing etc...
... you can hear whats going on