struggling with integrating melodic minor into diatonic scale shapes

**christianm77** · 02-07-2016, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

We all know that a parallel melodic minor scale can be derived from the major by simply flattening the 3rd. To produce the MM from the 7th degree of the ii chord also requires only one alteration - raising the root by a semitone. So, for example, in C:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B = C Major
C#, D, E, F, G, A, B = C# Altered

That one move provides a useful pivot to the ii chord (D-7). If we now rearrange the order of pitches in the C# altered scale to begin with A (A, B, C#, D, E, F, G), the result is the 5th mode of the D melodic minor scale and that mode is an ideal choice for the secondary dominant A7(b13).

A common move in bop is to flatten the B as well but that's rather OT...

I like the sharp or flat one or two notes in the key to get scales idea - this sort of thing is much easier to appreciate on a piano keyboard, I'd advise playing through these things with basic 1 3 7 chords in the left hand and scales in the right if you can manage it.

2 flats to get F melodic minor/E7alt - F G Ab Bb C D E F

This is also useful from the perspective of relative minor - A minor. Flat the 1 and the 2 and you have the E7alt sound.

**55bar** · 02-07-2016, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

A common move in bop is to flatten the B as well but that's rather OT...

I like the sharp or flat one or two notes in the key to get scales idea - this sort of thing is much easier to appreciate on a piano keyboard, I'd advise playing through these things with basic 1 3 7 chords in the left hand and scales in the right if you can manage it.

2 flats to get F melodic minor/E7alt - F G Ab Bb C D E F

This is also useful from the perspective of relative minor - A minor. Flat the 1 and the 2 and you have the E7alt sound.

Hi Christian I get all this. Can you explain what reg's last post was getting at? It has me stumped.

The second half of post 62 (I get the first half)

**christianm77** · 02-07-2016, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by 55bar

Hi Christian I get all this. Can you explain what reg's last post was getting at? It has me stumped.

The second half of post 62 (I get the first half)

I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask, not been following Reg's other posts TBH...

The second half he is talking about using melodic minor scales as a way of structuring blue notes (C Eb Gb/F# Bb) I think?

**55bar** · 02-07-2016, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask, not been following Reg's other posts TBH...

The second half he is talking about using melodic minor scales as a way of structuring blue notes (C Eb Gb/F# Bb) I think?

Hmm I get that idea too but can't at all fathom what he means in the examples he's giving.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-07-2016, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by 55bar

Hmm I get that idea too but can't at all fathom what he means in the examples he's giving.

Are you talking about #61 or the later one? 61 has a little more on blue notes.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/49396-struggling-integrating-melodic-minor-into-diatonic-scale-shapes-post615182.html
He discusses extended diatonic in the voicings thread from a few weeks ago... " best book " "how to create movement" or something?

**55bar** · 02-08-2016, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Are you talking about #61 or the later one? 61 has a little more on blue notes.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/improvisation/49396-struggling-integrating-melodic-minor-into-diatonic-scale-shapes-post615182.html
He discusses extended diatonic in the voicings thread from a few weeks ago... " best book " "how to create movement" or something?

Sorry Matt I meant second half of 62

Cmaj7-Db-7 "look at all the possibilities"

I just don't know what he means, I thought it meant how you could connect those chords.

In this example use. Db-7 Gb7b13 A7b13#9 D-7 G7b13 Cmaj7

I'm just not sure I'm in the right track.

**Vladan** · 02-08-2016, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by 55bar

Sorry Matt I meant second half of 62

Cmaj7-Db-7 "look at all the possibilities"

I just don't know what he means ...

Before Matt comes to clarify ...

Originally Posted by Reg

... When you just become aware of diatonic chord patterns from Maj/Min. then Melodic and Harmonic min, maybe Har. Maj.
You'll have most of them ...

**55bar** · 02-08-2016, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

Before Matt comes to clarify ...

Eh?

**Reg** · 02-08-2016, 12:06 PM

Sorry... was off grid for a few days...

So 55...Basically all this leads to any chord becoming a Target, a tonic in it's self.

And part of being able to have access to MM personally is being aware of any type of relationship to a Target. Any chord can be before or after the target. Some sound and work better than others.

The only way to know which relationships you like.... is to know them.

Take the Practical Standards thread tune "there will.....".

Quick analysis... Eb is tonic or I chord... moves to relative Minor , still tonic...then the Ab or IV chord... Subdominant.
Some filler... V/V and V7... dominant... and then another version of same thing.

So if the target is Ebmaj7 in the 1st 2 bars..... what are the possible relationships? Since we're talking about using MM, I'll use that as the goal of creating relationships with the target of Ebmaj7.

I generally use basic Function type of relationships.... example being I create relationships to the Ebmaj7 with 3 basic groups.
Tonic, Sundominant and Dominant and one approach is to just use root motion as the general control of what type of Functional group the added chord or melodic line is from.
ex.
Tonic relationships... to Ebmaj7 could use basic diatonic chord relationships, Call Ebma7 I and use III and VI as roots for relationships. Which allows me to create new micro relationships with those secondary targets...III or G and VI or C.

Basically secondary Tonic relationships are pretty boring without developing something...from them. So I could use...

Ebmaj .../ G-7 Ab13 / for 1st 2 bars. Even use Gmm for the G- and Ebmm for the Ab13.

As you can see there are lots of possibilities... what I can hear are all the possible relationships... from becoming aware of what they are and can become.

I'm aware of all the possible Tonic based relationships. Which includes any type of diatonic root motion. In this tune using Ebmaj7...roots G and C. These become primary tonic relationship targets. I can then create secondary relationships.
Like I did above G is diatonic root to Ebmaj. The Ab13 could be a Secondary Sub. V7 of G.

Anyway... that's why I said one needs to go through the processes of being aware of all possible relationships between ROOT MOTION. It's a fair amount of work... but what isn't.

You don't figure it out all at once... But as you begin to understand what your actually playing... you begin to hear the differences... the options and possibilities.

**55bar** · 02-08-2016, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Sorry... was off grid for a few days...

So 55...Basically all this leads to any chord becoming a Target, a tonic in it's self.

And part of being able to have access to MM personally is being aware of any type of relationship to a Target. Any chord can be before or after the target. Some sound and work better than others.

The only way to know which relationships you like.... is to know them.

Take the Practical Standards thread tune "there will.....".

Quick analysis... Eb is tonic or I chord... moves to relative Minor , still tonic...then the Ab or IV chord... Subdominant.
Some filler... V/V and V7... dominant... and then another version of same thong.

So if the target is Ebmaj7 in the 1st 2 bars..... what are the possible relationships? Since we're talking about using MM, I'll use that as the goal of creating relationships with the target of Ebmaj7.

I generally use basic Function type of relationships.... example being I create relationships to the Ebmaj7 with 3 basic groups.
Tonic, Sundominant and Dominant and one approach is to just use root motion as the general control of what type of Functional group the added chord or melodic line is from.
ex.
Tonic relationships... to Ebmaj7 could use basic diatonic chord relationships, Call Ebma7 I and use III and VI as roots for relationships. Which allows me to create new micro relationships with those secondary targets...III or G and VI or C.

Basically secondary Tonic relationships are pretty boring without developing something...from them. So I could use...

Ebmaj .../ G-7 Ab13 / for 1st 2 bars. Even use Gmm for the G- and Ebmm for the Ab13.

As you can see there are lots of possibilities... what can hear are all the possible relationships... from becoming aware of what they are and can become.

I'm aware of all the possible Tonic based relationships. Which includes any type of diatonic root motion. In this tune using Ebmaj7...roots G and C. These become primary tonic relationship targets. I can then create secondary relationships.
Like I did above G is diatonic root to Ebmaj. The Ab13 could be a Secondary Sub. V7 of G.

Anyway... that's why I said one needs to go through the processes of being aware of all possible relationships between ROOT MOTION. It's a fair amount of work... but what isn't.

You don't figure it out all at once... But as you begin to understand what your actually playing... you begin to hear the differences... the options and possibilities.

Got ya.

Many thanks Reg I'm working through this stuff slowly.

**Fazmaster** · 02-24-2016, 03:37 PM

Hi,

I have inserted some diagrams in PDF format. Visual cues for the guitar are important especially with the difficult melodic minor scale and how it relates to dominant chord forms. My example focuses on a basic dominant chord shape (root position dom 9/13th). Then the related mixolydian mode. Then the functioning melodic minor scale (lydian b7). Compare both and you will "see" the difference. When practicing your improvising, focus on the notes that differ from the familiar mixolydian.

A few key points

Use the melodic minor (lydian b7) for static, non-resolving dominant chords, or dominant chords functioning as tritone substitutes resolving to the I chord (II-bV7-I) and altered dominant chords functioning as V7 (II-V7alt-I- last example). There are other applications but you can figure more out by starting from this point.

Cheers,

**Fazmaster** · 02-24-2016, 03:43 PM

There's a typo in the las chord form of the PDF...you will have already noticed that its a dom.7th #5#9 form....

**boatheelmusic** · 03-02-2016, 10:34 AM

I've found that working on diminished chords/arps/scales first is a good move, since the patterns repeat in thirds.

There's a diminished scale always close by near any diatonic fingering, you need only learn one arp, scale and chord to get at b9, #9, and b5.

Later, you can morph to melodic minor to add the #5, but try this first IMO.

**Reg** · 03-03-2016, 12:06 PM

So Fazmaster... somewhat using Fishers 5 approaches to organize how to play works, but sometimes it misses the harmonic reference and relationship implied by the changes or the tune. It is an approach to get the fretboard together and be able to play through tunes... but it is based on Maj/min functional harmony. Which is the 1st step or basic understanding of western music... but it is only the beginning. The derivative approach... is just one approach for using modal interchange and basic use of Subs. It only opens one door. It's the beginning door and a required reference... but it misses relationships and may hit walls. More suited for pop and rock etc... not really a jazz understanding. Not Bad, I dig Jody's playing, his solo playing is incredible, harmonics etc... And there might be reason why he watches his fretboard like a hawk...

The use of modal interchange in your example to start with C7 (mixo)... modal interchange to CLydb7 and then the tritone sub of F#7altered... spellings of note collections need to have references. Although using embellishment as source for netes works OK... it hits walls when playing jazz harmony.

Boatheelmusic... Are you implying use symmetrical diminished as harmonic reference of mechanical. The adding of notes is generally a embellishment approach, (melodic).

**Fazmaster** · 03-03-2016, 12:28 PM

Hi Reg,

The objective of my post was to give a "visual" cue as a starting point to getting the Mel. Minor under your fingers with a a visual relationship to a basic dominant chord form.

I was addressing this portion of the OP's post

"...i'm struggling with visualizing what notes on the fretboard are available to me over the current chord in real time."

IMO getting a handle on the scale itself is the first priority. "Seeing" the chords the scale relates to comes next. Applying it in different harmonic situations after. One can understand all the theory behind the use of the Mel Minor but this becomes moot if you can't physically handle the scale and/or make a relationship between the scale and the basic chord forms.

Cheers,

**boatheelmusic** · 03-03-2016, 12:59 PM

"Boatheelmusic... Are you implying use symmetrical diminished as harmonic reference of mechanical. The adding of notes is generally a embellishment approach, (melodic)."

I'm suggesting the use of Ab, B, D or F diminished arps/scales/licks over G7 in the key of C for example to heighten tension. Same notes in each.

The G7 can be played in its 4 inversions, and one of these diminished forms is close by using the same fingerings for each.

For me, a straightforward intro to b5, b9 and #9 tonalities.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-03-2016, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

... I'm going to move my posts over to the Theory section, my Live at the speed of Jazz thread. That way I won't derail any directions that an OP wanted the thread to go.

The use of MM will be 1st series of posts. I'll try and keep comments usable. Like how to use MM, say
1)Diatonically
2)Functionally, relating to maj/min functional harmony as embellishment
3)Modally... or relating to the scale for functional tonality
4)My expanded diatonic usage
5) how I use to frame Blue notes

Then maybe the technical BS... fingerings of...
scales, arpeggions, triads, 7ths, 9ths and complete arpeggios... and how I organize those different applications when performing.

How the chords built on each scale degree relate to each other, within different contexts or tunes. So all the concepts relate to comping and soloing etc...

Hey, Reg. I would really dig any portion of the above which you have time for. Sure doesn't seem to be as much discussion these days in the non-gear department. Of course, I'm lazy. Mostly just reply to others.

I've been looking a lot at reorienting my visualization of MM in terms of the 2nd finger/6th string reference, and it's really helped simplify things. There are a couple that are still easier to see the old way at first, (from MM root), but many of them were immediately easier to visualize, play and understand, even without looking at the fretboard. It's completely changed the way I look at (or don't look at) the fretboard. Thanks.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

**Longways to Go** · 03-03-2016, 04:30 PM

I've been chewing away hard at the Melodic Minor for the past couple of months now.
This thread has been useful, but often times I'm getting lost in the finer points discussed.
The one really useful thing that struck home so far from the thread is using Lydian Dominant of IIb in a 2-5-1.

My study of Melodic Minor has progressed as follows:

Dorian scale in G in 5 positions, then Melodic Minor in G in 5 positions.
Lydian scale in G in 5 positions, then Lydian Dominant in G in 5 positions.
Locrian scale in G in 5 positions, then Altered Scale in G in 5 positions.
The close relationships between these scales has helped me begin to hear & feel the Melodic Minor vibe.

The thing I find challenging about practicing Melodic Minor is finding a musical context where you can stretch out with it for a while. In the 2-5-1 context, it seems to be all about creating tension. Is there a good progression where you can play Melodic Minor the whole time?

**boatheelmusic** · 03-03-2016, 04:55 PM

Modal jazz, like So What

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-03-2016, 05:44 PM

Most chord types using something like this: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/showthread.php?t=41822

**christianm77** · 03-03-2016, 06:43 PM

Invitation is a good one - you can play the melodic minor on every single chord if you are so minded.

**Fazmaster** · 03-03-2016, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Modal jazz, like So What

Simpler still..Aebersold IIm7-V7-I...Focusing on the 7th mode of Mel minor (starting one half step above the root - for example Ab mel minor on G7 in the key of C...) on the V7 and getting your ears to finding good resolutions to I.

**Vladan** · 03-04-2016, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Fazmaster

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Modal jazz, like So What

Simpler still..Aebersold IIm7-V7-I...Focusing on the 7th mode of Mel minor (starting one half step above the root - for example Ab mel minor on G7 in the key of C...) on the V7 and getting your ears to finding good resolutions to I.

How about new thread about 251s in modal jazz?

**Longways to Go** · 03-04-2016, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Fazmaster

Simpler still..Aebersold IIm7-V7-I...Focusing on the 7th mode of Mel minor (starting one half step above the root - for example Ab mel minor on G7 in the key of C...) on the V7 and getting your ears to finding good resolutions to I.

Fazmaster,
that's the one application I already know of -- I'm working with it.
I'm trying to find some other possibilities too. I'm trying both G altered and G Lydian dominant in the major 251.
I'm also looking for a solid approach to Melodic Minor over minor 251 -- haven't quite got that figured out yet.

BoatHeelMusic,
I worked on So What for a while last night.
I'm making progress with the sounds, but I'm still unclear as to which melodic minor mode is most appropriate over the chords?