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or is Jack referring to the Just Friends on El Hombre?
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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02-02-2016 04:51 PM
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Oh, well in that case it's great advice! I think Coltrane's solo on Just Friends was was fairly uneventful, IIRC... Originally Posted by StanG
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So This thread has moved on. If we want to keep working on shapes etc...(use Dorian shape, it will work more naturally, think of MM as II- chord)
It pretty common practice not to use MM in traditional style as with classical or maj/min functional harmony.
By that I mean jazz can and does also use MM as embellishment or in the style of one set of Guidelines for how notes react to each other and which notes control the interactions..... Maj/min functional harmony.
In the style of take one of the basic notes patterns of which all music relates to... Maj or Min and embellish as needed.
But Jazz also has and uses other approaches to create and control notes and their interaction... of which My last post was heading... the concept of MM being altered notes or embellishments is from a maj/min functional reference. It's like looking and hearing jazz in Black and White. Not wrong, but you might be missing something. And it has to to do with the understanding ... not the usage.
Hey 55
yes I dig that back when there were cassette recorders... and basically I still do all the time, many of my gigs are duos, trios... so most of the time... I'm the one implying harmony etc...
Well I went out and listened to music a lot... I wasn't really the practice type, I worked on something until I understood what it was... then moved on. Never pounded... But I've always played lots of gigs... and that is pounding music into something etc...
Matt... so D-7 by it's self, doing the math...
D-7 to Eb-7
D-7 to E-7
D-7 to F-7 etc.... keep going, the rest of the roots...
Then the same with Maj7 chords, then Dom7 chords then -7b5
In the end your just going find all the possible relationships. Of what harmonic pattern, basically chord pattern can D-7 be part of.
First you'll find all the diatonic motion from the different scales... Maj/Min Harmonic Minor and MM
Just from the diatonic relationships from the three note patterns from those scales... you'll find a lot.
Then you find other relationships... but using different harmonic organizations... Subs... related chords from chord patterns... II V is easiest, then I VI I V's etc... blues. minor using D-7... cycles.
Start using Borrowing or the traditional Min 3rd relationships from relative and parallel min/maj.... then modal interchange which opens all doors... I generally try hear results in context of tunes, or at least a vamp.
Again in the end your going to have organization of where the chords have the possibility of coming from, and the complete spelling of all the notes.... not just embellishments. So when you do use embellishments, they also can have organization...
I also as I've posted use that expanded diatonic relationship, just like the traditional relative/ parallel maj/min application but going both diatonic directions all the time... and I add modal characteristics... can be also maj 3rds from modal interchange relationship. Sounds much more complicated that it really is...
It's still just using addition and subtraction... there are more levels ... but not really for jazz. Becomes more of a compositional direction.
And the as 55 mentioned... the more targets... the more options. And usually like I've always said... most are going on simultaneously, along with blue notes and other modal organization, not just MM.
So if I take..
D-7 G7 / E-7 A-7 / D-7 G7 / Cma6/9 /
and use
Db7#9 G7b13#9 / F#7b13#9 A7b13#9 / D7#9 G7b13 / Cmaj6/9
say
So what could be the organization of use of MMLast edited by Reg; 02-03-2016 at 01:11 PM.
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The F#7b13#9 is confusing me I can't see how it's functioning apart from the SEMITONE movement from the previous chord. Originally Posted by Reg
But what is its relationship to A7b13#9
Bb MM
So the F#7b13#9 is from G MM right?
Are you thinking of the G713 as the tonal target here. Blues notes in that chord?
LOST.
F#7 A7 minor third relationship?
So the more I think about this I think I'm missing the point.Last edited by 55bar; 02-03-2016 at 02:42 PM.
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Ok in reply to my own questions
F#7b13#9 is basically Em7b5
From GMM. So E-7b5 to A7 alt
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My guess:
Db7 (V) G7b13 (tritone of V) / to F#7b13 (I of previous Db7 as V) A7b13 (minor 3rd move from F#7) / D7 (V- I from previous A7) G7 (V - I from previous D7) / Cmaj V -I from G7
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Works for me Originally Posted by StanG
Was trying to answer his last question re organisational use of MM.
But yes 100% works I just needed to link to F# to the A in my headLast edited by 55bar; 02-03-2016 at 04:38 PM.
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I'll bet this is what Reg had in mind. It is much less convoluted than my idea, particularly when applied against the II V III VI II V I template. Originally Posted by 55bar
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thanks for the great replies everyone. my mind exploded well before the first page's post limit by the way. be back later when i've pieced my thoughts together.
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Possibly, for me it makes sense I understand it both ways. Originally Posted by StanG
I'm trying to relate everything to MM as that's how I learned to play years ago.
It's getting used to the "interchangeability" of all the chords in MM
it eventually becomes one big chord lol
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Hey... that is the point, there are lots of possibilities... melody is Cmixo
Db7#9 could be as simple as from Dmm.
G7alt .........................................Abmm
F#7alt........................................Gmm
A7alt..........................................Bbm m
D7alt..........................................Ebm m
G7alt..........................................Abm m
then C6/9
There are lots of possible relationships that can organize ... what I was thinking...or hearing was
Db#9... was still D- but MM, so more of a D-69
the G7alt was basic sub of sub
the F#alt was mm sub of E-7b5 from 6th degree of Gmm or related II of A7
the rest is pretty straight... create some tension and then relax
A more bluesy version would be with target of "C", blue notes ..C Eb Bb and Gb or F# (same II V III VI etc...)
D7#9b13 from Ebmm all 4 BN's
G7alt....from Abmm..........2 BN's Eb and Bb
E7alt ..............................2 BN's C and Bb
A7alt...............................3 BN's C, Bb and Eb
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Matt... what your trying to become aware of... is where can any chord come from.
Become aware of where chord patterns can come from.
D-7 can be diatonic to many tonal patterns, the function can be different.
Ionian...can be II-7, III-7, VI-7
Dorian.............I-7, II-7, V-7
Phrygian..........I-7, IV-7, VII-7
Lydian.............III-7, VI-7, VII-7
Mixo...............II-7, V-7, VI-7
Aeol...............I-7, IV-7,V-7
Loc.................bIII-7,bIV-7, bVII-7
With Mel. Min. it's only a II-7
Har. Min...........it's only a IV-7
Har. Maj...........it's only a III-7
Then maybe Related II-7's lots of choices.. Take any application V chord, and add related II-7
So the long version is to take every chord and place chord after it.... what are the possibilities
example
Cmaj7 to Db-7
Cmaj7 to D-7
Cmaj7 to Eb-7
Cmaj7 to E-7
Cmaj7 to F-7
etc... then
Cmaj7 to Dbmaj7
Cmaj7 to Dmaj7
Cmaj7 to Ebmaj7
etc... the to Dominant 7ths
and then -7b5s
Then the same process starting with a C-7, then C7 and C-7b5
When you just become aware of diatonic chord patterns from Maj/Min. then Melodic and Harmonic min, maybe Har. Maj.
You'll have most of them.
The modal applications really only apply to Maj/Min. And Harmonic Min. and Maj are the same as Maj/min.
And generally MM is not used functionally, by that I mean V7 I type of analysis.
It is a lot of information... but becomes basic harmony after some time.
And the extensions become naturally spelled also. Most don't go through this process... obviously too much wk.
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Hi Reg thanks for this. Originally Posted by Reg
What do you mean by "the possibilities?"
Cmaj 7 to Db-7 etc
Possibilities of what? I get all the stuff above this with where the -7 chords appear within the modes but I'm baffled to what you mean here.
I to bII ?
I to II
I to bIII
I to III
OR
IV to bV-7 etc
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So, Reg, am I correct in assuming that you're talking about the D-7 being the target, and I'd be working out chords to get from Eb-7 to D-7, E-7 to D-7 etc.? I would have thought that the analysis was more around the context of the target, but I don't know if I'm thinking about it the right way. In terms of connecting chords, I can probably do more with modal interchange as an entry point. Like Cmaj7 to Db-7 could be Cmaj7, C-7b5, Ab7#5#9, Db-7? I don't know that that's even the type of thing you're talking about. I guess that's from parallel major of the Db. Could probably get to the same place from starting more with looking at the Cmaj7 and Amm. I just don't know if you're looking more at the initial chord, the secondary (target) or both at once. I also wouldn't know how to start, in terms of being systematic, in the way it sounds like you're thinking of re. all possibilities. The above ham-fisted attempt of mine feels more like guess-work than working out mathematically Originally Posted by Reg
Possibly in way over my head...
It might help to see an example of one of the pairs, something like the Cmaj7 to Db-7, worked out in different ways and labeled, in terms of how you'd arrived at it. It occurs to me, now, that possibly you're talking more about the contexts (II7, III7 etc.) with reference to the first chord, in which case, you're using the context chord patterns to arrive at a place to transition with a dominant/subV or other type of approach to the target.
Too many questions. Sorry...
Thanks, Reg.
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I don't know if I understand you, or if I understand Reg, but what he says, to me sounds like for example:
What is this chord?
It's m7.
What scale and mode is it from?
Let's say it's from major/ ionian.
Is it ii, iii, or vi?
Let's say it's ii.
Ok, where from could have I arrived to this place?
... so you check possibilities ...
Where can I go from this place?
... so you check possibilities ...
And you do the same for every mode of every type of scale you know.
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... I'm going to move my posts over to the Theory section, my Live at the speed of Jazz thread. That way I won't derail any directions that an OP wanted the thread to go.
The use of MM will be 1st series of posts. I'll try and keep comments usable. Like how to use MM, say
1)Diatonically
2)Functionally, relating to maj/min functional harmony as embellishment
3)Modally... or relating to the scale for functional tonality
4)My expanded diatonic usage
5) how I use to frame Blue notes
Then maybe the technical BS... fingerings of...
scales, arpeggions, triads, 7ths, 9ths and complete arpeggios... and how I organize those different applications when performing.
How the chords built on each scale degree relate to each other, within different contexts or tunes. So all the concepts relate to comping and soloing etc...
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remember: music is hard and tricky Originally Posted by 55bar
Isn't that 3 sentences?
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Eh? Originally Posted by Nate Miller
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nevermind, he says 2 sentences and writes 3
I'll let you get back to your melodic minor
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That was may original response to his thread. I have three things to say about this. Originally Posted by Nate Miller
4. Never sit down with a lightbulb in your pocket
And B
NEVER play leapfrog with a unicorn
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Thanks. Looking forward to this! Originally Posted by Reg
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reg my man. and everyone else who has been contributing awesomely. please keep it in here. i'm absorbing this stuff like a sponge.
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I've got one.
Learn Hot House. Analyse carefully.
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One way of looking at the alternate scale is that if it were based off of the major scale, every note is flat except the root! So if playing over a G7 chord you would get most of it by playing the Gb Major scale. But remembering to play G instead of Gb as the root is the problem with that way of thinking.
To me it's best to memorize the patterns and hear (memorize) what each note sounds like. It has been a struggle for me too. Gotta take a break from working on it once in a while - or go crazy.
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We all know that a parallel melodic minor scale can be derived from the major by simply flattening the 3rd. To produce the MM from the 7th degree of the ii chord also requires only one alteration - raising the root by a semitone. So, for example, in C:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B = C Major
C#, D, E, F, G, A, B = C# Altered
That one move provides a useful pivot to the ii chord (D-7). If we now rearrange the order of pitches in the C# altered scale to begin with A (A, B, C#, D, E, F, G), the result is the 5th mode of the D melodic minor scale and that mode is an ideal choice for the secondary dominant A7(b13).
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