Chromatic runs

**richb2** · 01-17-2016, 01:39 PM

I was listening in my car today to Kombo and was admiring an ocassional chromatic run. I used to think that this guy was playing some sort of "outside" scale that I just didn't recognize. Now I think he is playing chromatic runs. Now it occurs to me that the place to start and the place to end might be important (while the notes in the middle might be less so). Does anyone have any input on where to start and end a chromatic run? How many notes should a run have? A lot or a little? I realize that it all depends but any insights are appreciated.

**grahambop** · 01-17-2016, 01:55 PM

I guess one way is starting on a chord tone and ending on another one, that's probably what I tend to do.

For example starting on the first beat, over a minor chord you could descend in eighth notes from the 5th to the 3rd, that covers 2 beats nicely and lands you on the third beat on a chord tone. Or on a major chord, same thing but from the 3rd to the root. Typical bebop line really.

**pubylakeg** · 01-17-2016, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by richb2

Does anyone have any input on where to start and end a chromatic run?

How many notes should a run have?.

Start and end on chord tones.

The fundamental objective in bebop is rhythmic placement of chord tones.
A chromatic run with 3 notes (inclusive) is a whole tone
4 notes is a minor third
5 notes is a major third.

**bobby d** · 01-17-2016, 03:12 PM

I don't know who Kombo is, so I can't comment on that. But, I've been playing chromatics for decades copying George Benson starting in '74. Recently I realized that he doesn't always start on a chord tone or even a diatonic tone. In fact, his more interesting descending chromatic runs start on a dissonant note. Ending on a chord tone makes sense because it resolves all of those off notes that were just played. But it isn't a rule that can't be broken IMO.

They idea of chromatics is getting outside of diatonic scales and hearing what all those outside notes sound like. If you're new to the concept, start on the root note (high E string) and descend chromatically 4 notes to the 6th. Repeat this pattern on the B string and G string and you'll end up an octave lower than the starting note. (You'll notice that the flat 5 wasn't included in this run.)

Try other similar patterns (3 or 4 notes at a time) that always resolve on chord tones for now.

I'm only starting to play around with starting or ending on chromatic tones. I can see and hear endless possibilities.

**docbop** · 01-17-2016, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by bobby d

I don't know who Kombo is, so I can't comment on that. But, I've been playing chromatics for decades copying George Benson starting in '74. Recently I realized that he doesn't always start on a chord tone or even a diatonic tone. In fact, his more interesting descending chromatic runs start on a dissonant note. Ending on a chord tone makes sense because it resolves all of those off notes that were just played. But it isn't a rule that can't be broken IMO.

They idea of chromatics is getting outside of diatonic scales and hearing what all those outside notes sound like. If you're new to the concept, start on the root note (high E string) and descend chromatically 4 notes to the 6th. Repeat this pattern on the B string and G string and you'll end up an octave lower than the starting note. (You'll notice that the flat 5 wasn't included in this run.)

Try other similar patterns (3 or 4 notes at a time) that always resolve on chord tones for now.

I'm only starting to play around with starting or ending on chromatic tones. I can see and hear endless possibilities.

Right it's a common Jazz patten to just play a 3 note chromatic run with late note the chosen target. Also just filling in whole steps in scales. It's all about that ending note.

**vintagelove** · 01-17-2016, 06:27 PM

Check out the Barry Harris ideas on "bebop" scales.

1357, use 1 or 3 chromatic passing tones,

246, zero or two

**jrkelley** · 01-17-2016, 07:51 PM

My guitar professor exposed me to the bebop scales- he referred to them as chromatic alterations, and showed me the most common chromaticisms for each scale/mode. Here is a great resource for this subject:

The Dominant Bebop Scale

**Irez87** · 01-17-2016, 09:05 PM

Study weak beat strong beat ideas. Bach is good for that.

In terms of fingering, I've been adopting some of Pat Martino's ideas of using the index finger to descend chromatically. Mr. Zucker's book hipped me to that idea

**neatomic** · 01-17-2016, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Irez87

Study weak beat strong beat ideas. Bach is good for that.

yeah js bach..he had a few good ideas....HAHA!!

hey erez

cheers

**Irez87** · 01-17-2016, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

yeah js bach..he had a few good ideas....HAHA!!

hey erez

cheers

Yeah, just a couple. Damn, did he have a lot of kidlems. No present day relatives from what I hear.

**princeplanet** · 01-18-2016, 07:19 AM

Gazooks, you can spend several lifetimes figuring out how to use chromatics, and yeah, for every rule, you can find examples of flagrant avoidance of said rule. As said, the end is more important than where it starts, and for longer chromatic lines, trying to hit chord tones on down beats will sound stronger. Too many downbeat clashes starts to sound boring...

**Jonah** · 01-18-2016, 08:03 AM

It depends very much on what we take as sdiatonic in the context... in jazz there are many possibilities.
In C major - b flat is chromatic (even though it's a not of Cdom7) and in C mixolydian it's diatonic...

So if you know what diatonic consept you're in you apply chromatic notes respectively.. they can be treated as passing note, approach notes, or notes from borrowed diatonic concept etc.

Study weak beat strong beat ideas. Bach is good for that

that's more about harmonic rythm... it's not necessarily connected with real chromatism. And what Bach mostly did was harmonic syncopas based on resolution of diatonic tones.

Pure chromatism is very rare for such a music, it sounded strictly dissonant and therefor usually had certain meaning (descending line meant 'descent to Hell' and ascending line - 'ascension to Golgofa)

**christianm77** · 01-19-2016, 08:20 AM

Yeah bro, leave Bach out of this or it could get totally derailed.

i would like to recommend forward motion by Hal Galper. Interesting approach. Here chord tones are 1 and 3 rather than every beat.

**edh** · 01-30-2016, 01:45 AM

When I play chromatic runs for some reason the don't sound very jazzy. Any advice as to how I can get these to sound more jazzy?

P.S Is this considered hijacking a thread?

**gggomez** · 01-30-2016, 03:10 AM

I make this comment to test my learning, no expert, tell me if this is wrong

Is part of the jazz language to start your line off the beat, eg the & before 1 or after 1. As it is off the beat start on a non diatonic note and resolve the chromatic line on say 1 of the next bar. Also it does not have to go in a straight line eg you might ascend a couple of notes then descend from their or starting somewhere else.

Not a hard and fast rule, something I have learnt transcribing Grant Green.

**christianm77** · 01-30-2016, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

I make this comment to test my learning, no expert, tell me if this is wrong

Is part of the jazz language to start your line off the beat, eg the & before 1 or after 1. As it is off the beat start on a non diatonic note and resolve the chromatic line on say 1 of the next bar. Also it does not have to go in a straight line eg you might ascend a couple of notes then descend from their or starting somewhere else.

Not a hard and fast rule, something I have learnt transcribing Grant Green.

Interesting observation. Well yes, it is, but don't take my word for it...

Sounds like you are doing the right thing, noticing patterns, learning from the records.

What we think doesn't really matter. Keep doing what you are doing and come up with your own shit based on the players you love. That's my advice.

**Jonah** · 01-30-2016, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

I make this comment to test my learning, no expert, tell me if this is wrong

Is part of the jazz language to start your line off the beat, eg the & before 1 or after 1. As it is off the beat start on a non diatonic note and resolve the chromatic line on say 1 of the next bar. Also it does not have to go in a straight line eg you might ascend a couple of notes then descend from their or starting somewhere else.

Not a hard and fast rule, something I have learnt transcribing Grant Green.

I guess commonclassic bop chromatic line when you break it whith arpeggio...

for example over D-7 you go down chromatically c-b-bb - and then - d-f-a.. (arpeggio from below)...

But it has very strong bop charateristic... really signature lick (more Parker-style)... so I tried to avoid it...

Another common thing would fill-ins betweem tones of to different chords lime D-7 // G7
d-f-c-a-bb-b etc (try both phrasings bb on strong beat and b ob strong beat)

I think this stuff is common already with CC...

But as for me the most interesting thing for me is to approach chromatics as overlapping of different harmonic concept... so like it is not chromatics... imagine you have a 'chromatic line' but you applie to it different punch cards that highlight different realtions betwen the notes harmony -wise