triads as key both to jazz harmony and the fretboard

[christianm77]

Oh I'll just repeat what I said. Basically there appears to a separation between melody and harmony in that i wouldn't tend to get an unresolved major seventh chord as a rhythm guitarist, but it's perfectly OK for Louis to play an unresolved major seventh in the melody. It's a bit weird, but there does appear to be a bit of a separation in practice. That said not having studied 30s piano I couldn't say if this is a guitar thing... Obviously on piano you have two hands.

It's quite a strange thing to get ones head around but I don't think music was as unified back then. It was more like 'this is the piano left hands job' 'this is what the saxes do in section' 'this is what the soloist does' 'the trumpet plays melodies' 'the clarinet plays vertically through the changes' and so on. If you think about the earliest jazz each instrument effectively has its own language.

It's a bit like samba where each percussion instrument has a specific role... The drum kit of course is like three or four instruments in one. Would it fair to say this quite an African thing? Gunther Schuller discusses the rhythmic links with west Africa in his book 'early jazz', but it's also interesting how the harmonic/melodic language is different too. You can see it even in later music ...

You could even say that a lot of the advances in jazz have come from adopting the roles of other instruments - often rhythm section players imitating the horns.

Also I find it telling Barry Harris's theory unlike say standard modern jazz theory, melodic improvisation and harmony are dealt with separately. This has caused confusion on other threads....

[matt.guitarteacher]

Oh I'll just repeat what I said. Basically there appears to a separation between melody and harmony in that i wouldn't tend to get an unresolved major seventh chord as a rhythm guitarist, but it's perfectly OK for Louis to play an unresolved major seventh in the melody. It's a bit weird, but there does appear to be a bit of a separation in practice. That said not having studied 30s piano I couldn't say if this is a guitar thing... Obviously on piano you have two hands.

It's quite a strange thing to get ones head around but I don't think music was as unified back then. It was more like 'this is the piano left hands job' 'this is what the saxes do in section' 'this is what the soloist does' 'the trumpet plays melodies' 'the clarinet plays vertically through the changes' and so on. If you think about the earliest jazz each instrument effectively has its own language.

It's a bit like samba where each percussion instrument has a specific role... The drum kit of course is like three or four instruments in one. Would it fair to say this quite an African thing? Gunther Schuller discusses the rhythmic links with west Africa in his book 'early jazz', but it's also interesting how the harmonic/melodic language is different too. You can see it even in later music ...

You could even say that a lot of the advances in jazz have come from adopting the roles of other instruments - often rhythm section players imitating the horns.

Also I find it telling Barry Harris's theory unlike say standard modern jazz theory, melodic improvisation and harmony are dealt with separately. This has caused confusion on other threads....

I think it's also an ear thing. Melody is kind of heard separately IMO. Like you say with piano, you can get away with anything in the right-hand. Left-hand just kind of heard separately.

But it's not just a range thing either. I've noticed that with Chord melody, you can get away with nearly anything , (juxtaposing clashing melody and chord voicing), if you separate the melody voice and the chord below by even half a beat. It's really interesting how the brain hears it differently in that context.

I think it relates somewhat to something I saw on Brain Games yesterday. Ha ha. :-)

[Reg]

Well that's a very vanilla approach and a very small and controlled set of guideline for trying to teach someone to play jazz in a jazz style.

I believe part of performing jazz... jazz harmony is about not using conventional classical voice leading principles from counterpoint organization... if anything it's about not using them... parallel anything is very common practice... not using all the basic melodic principles to organize changes, and performance not using them... when performing is again very common practice.

Generally when you follow those organizational guidelines... your notating out a performance, and the performance is based on ONE performance... more in the written memorized tradition... you know classical music or any other period which uses written music for reference.

Jazz theory... personally no, not even close. Part of being a musician... yes of course, it's the basic reference for almost all western music... It's like trying to ride a bike with no wheels, play a sport without the organization or any equipment, work without tool.

Your analogy of trying to play a Samba is about arrangement... not the elements of Samba. The samba is not what instruments play what.

Groyniad... I tried to check out you vid again... could not find it. But from what I remember You were using triad shapes and fingerings to help you perform through progressions. If your only calling the notes you want to count... and the rest don't really count ... you can basically call just about any organization of notes the basis for what your playing. I heard more than triads... But I did like your lines and the same with Garrisons... which are generated from shapes you call triads. I think the topic is great and might help us all actually understand what we're trying to talk about and play.

Christian has expertise in that area and time period of playing early jazz... It's still part of the complete picture.

[Jonah]

Christian... I think that the basic thing is still that harmony as a subject is harmony. What you describe are elements of texture through wich the harmony is realized. You can investigate any practical application of different theories - to separate chords in comping from melody of the soloist... to take in reference performance practice and techical abilities... etc. But the subject of harmony is all that together and basically what involves pitch as the essential factor. I don't say you're wrong, it's interesting and it's important and has its role and value... but it's not what harmony is about. In harmonic system melody is always a part of harmony... But ok... let me try to undertand what's behind your approach... I'd really appreciate if you explain it ... whare does this 'melodic D' come from in Eflat triad in the first bar of 'Solitude'? What would be your explanation? Thank you

[Jonah]

''I think it's also an ear thing. Melody is kind of heard separately IMO. Like you say with piano, you can get away with anything in the right-hand. Left-hand just kind of heard separately.'' Matt, and when there's only sax player playing a melody alone does it mean there's no harmony? It's not about ears... it's about notions

[matt.guitarteacher]

''I think it's also an ear thing. Melody is kind of heard separately IMO. Like you say with piano, you can get away with anything in the right-hand. Left-hand just kind of heard separately.'' Matt, and when there's only sax player playing a melody alone does it mean there's no harmony? It's not about ears... it's about notions

Sorry for any confusion, Jonah. I wasn't really speaking to the larger conversation.

I was referencing Christian's statement of Maj7 (for example) common in the melody without respect to whether common in the chords played at the time.

Basically there appears to a separation between melody and harmony in that i wouldn't tend to get an unresolved major seventh chord as a rhythm guitarist, but it's perfectly OK for Louis to play an unresolved major seventh in the melody. It's a bit weird, but there does appear to be a bit of a separation in practice. That said not having studied 30s piano I couldn't say if this is a guitar thing... Obviously on piano you have two hands.

[Groyniad]

here are the triads packed into two fundamental sounds in one part of the neck - min7 (or maj 6); min6 (melodic or jazz minor)

[Jonah]

Excuse me if I misunderstood it, Matt...

I actually agree... even in classical there are non-chordal passing note.. and there are concepts in modern music that even do not envolve pitch harmony at all...
I can find samples - mostly in relatively modern composition - where melody and harmony really do belong to different concepts... but still there's internal organization in the melody too in this case...

but mostly jazz language is much more conventional and melody represents harmony...

There are some ways how to highlight melodic voices - to give it to certain instrument, to shift it vertically or horizontally... to use articulation - so it is again either rythmic or arrangement tools... harmony stays the same in any case.

I am just trying to explain my argument in conversation with Christian..

[christianm77]

I think it's also an ear thing. Melody is kind of heard separately IMO. Like you say with piano, you can get away with anything in the right-hand. Left-hand just kind of heard separately.

But it's not just a range thing either. I've noticed that with Chord melody, you can get away with nearly anything , (juxtaposing clashing melody and chord voicing), if you separate the melody voice and the chord below by even half a beat. It's really interesting how the brain hears it differently in that context.

I think it relates somewhat to something I saw on Brain Games yesterday. Ha ha. :-)

Christian... I think that the basic thing is still that harmony as a subject is harmony. What you describe are elements of texture through wich the harmony is realized. You can investigate any practical application of different theories - to separate chords in comping from melody of the soloist... to take in reference performance practice and techical abilities... etc. But the subject of harmony is all that together and basically what involves pitch as the essential factor. I don't say you're wrong, it's interesting and it's important and has its role and value... but it's not what harmony is about. In harmonic system melody is always a part of harmony... But ok... let me try to undertand what's behind your approach... I'd really appreciate if you explain it ... whare does this 'melodic D' come from in Eflat triad in the first bar of 'Solitude'? What would be your explanation? Thank you

That's all I got man, you win....

[christianm77]

OK I am joking a bit, but you really seem to want me to write a PhD thesis!

I'm more interested in playing music TBH. Early jazz seems to be taught via a large number of rules of thumb, practical playing, and not much more theoretically. There are no schools. There are no all embracing theories. But there are recordings.

(To be honest, I think all jazz is actually this way, and all embracing theories should be veiwed with suspicion)

I have given you the extent of my knowledge and thoughts on the matter. If you are unsatisfied, and still interested, go and listen to the records and see what you think.

[Jehu]

here are the triads packed into two fundamental sounds in one part of the neck - min7 (or maj 6); min6 (melodic or jazz minor)

Cool stuff, Groyniad. I'll have to play around with these things. It's a shame the thread went off the rails, but I applaud your efforts to get it back on track.