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I should amend what I'm saying to be, for a person coming to jazz from another background who already knows their triads...what I'm getting at is, if you're new to jazz, those 4 note chords are the most direct route, rather than the extra steps required to make those triads work in a jazz sense.
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
When I'm teaching someone new to the guitar in general, definitely triads first.
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01-17-2016 04:33 PM
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Yes. And actually I'm getting confused between this thread and the one on arpeggios. Chords definitely Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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If you think more fundamentally; triads are the building blocks for the basic harmonic organization of jazz. It's all about stacking them and/or utilizing different "starting points". You comp a CM7 chord and I'll play a melody derived from b min and everyone will hear a rich C maj 9 #11 sound. Originally Posted by Reg
To Groyniad and everyone else, I'd caution against working only on adjacent, one note per string "shapes"'. Two string sets are your best friend.
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Much life Jeff was talking about, I was one of those guys that came to jazz from another style having a pretty solid foundation in triads already.
I spent about almost 10 years on classic rock, blues, funk, and playing in hippy jam bands... improvising modally. That gave me a chance to experiment with triads in a diatonic sense.
Then I discovered jazz and bebop
haha
My first jazz teacher was a big Joe Pass guy and broke everything down into Maj7, min7, dom7, and halfdim7.
That stuff was helpful in the sense that it got me arranging chord melodies pretty quickly.
But looking back, that over-simplification was actually very limiting for me. There are so many rich and lush sounds in 'jazz harmony', and while over-simplifying them can maybe make it a little quicker to jump in (which is something I don't necessarily believe) it makes it more difficult to see and hear all the different tonalities and sounds possible. It got me trapped in a very particular way of thinking and playing vertically and treating every chord the same... 1-3-5-7 and then maybe I would try and glue some foreign object onto it (an 'extension').
It was over 10 years later that I studied with a teacher while working on my masters that developed a system of playing and teaching that was essentially based on triads. That really opened me up to hearing and understanding jazz harmony, its relationship with horizontal melodic playing, and the seeing that 'extensions' are not just extra notes we can add on when it works, but are integral parts of harmony and melody. The sounds I'd been struggling to find while thinking that everything needed to grow from the 1-3-5-7 could be created pretty simply by letting go of that idea and starting from a triad... though not always the root triad... much like the OP, but organized in a different way.
The argument could be made that it's too advanced, and that I wouldn't have been prepared to learn jazz from the beginning that way. But, the argument could also be made that if I'd spent 10 years learning jazz that way instead of the other way first (to prepare) that I would be way further along in my development. Especially if I'd had a teacher helping me organize the material and work through it.
There's only 12 notes and countless ways to organize them. And the majority of my favorite players didn't study the system I'm working on right now. Everyone is wired differently, and there is no ONE system that will work for everyone. To me it's more about how much of ourselves we passionately dump into it. But if it were possible to go back in time, I wouldn't have waited 10 years to prepare for my return to triads. All good though. Just means I got 10 years of work on my plate now. But that's why I do this thing anyways. Because I love learning new things and discovering new sounds.
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What about triads that are 3 consecutive scale tones? Hey, this has been an interesting topic and thread. I remember Larry Carlton talking about using triads in his improvisation in a Guitar Player interview way back when. But he was talking about using triads from different scales than the key he was playing in! Anyway, I think triads can be any group of 3 notes as others have implied or touched on. Many possibilities! Originally Posted by Groyniad
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That's not my understanding. And I could be wrong. A triad is a root, major or minor (or diminished) 3rd - even a 4th or augmented 3rd, and a 5th - perfect, diminished or augmented.
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Other than that they would be a cluster. Correct?
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Yes. Originally Posted by mrcee
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Yes triads are the foundation of western Maj/Min functional... But I don't believe this thread is using triads from that perspective.
Jazz generally is based on 7th chords... because much of the basic harmonic progressions use notes that are derived differently in the triad tradition.... not all altered notes are embellishments. jazz has common practice functional usage of different note patterns... that are not always based on CPP functional harmony.
Taking triads and adding relationships is different method of organizing basic functional patterns. I'm not saying WRONG.
I still disagree... Triads are not the key to Jazz Harmony... I would love someone to show me how they are... not an application of use in an existing harmonic relationship... how they are the organization of the harmony.
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yes thats wot i fought too Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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The basic reference of jazz harmony depends on a) who you ask and b) what kind of sound your ears are drawn to. Originally Posted by Reg
Triads were certainly the basic reference point for Django's era. For Barry Harris it's 6th chords. Later, seventh chords like wot you learn at Berklee (what I learned first). Now - intervallic structures through the mode maybe?
A very large amount of Bird's material is structured around triads. I think we can take bop as the cornerstone of a modern jazz education.
They are very manageable little units. Outlining harmony in triads is a great first step for the improvisor, then you can move to related triads.
So, I tend to teach my students triads first. Four note structures can wait.
TBH I don't think Seventh Chords are a very sound theoretical basis for jazz harmony and I wouldn't necessarily esteem them over any other added note chord.
They create issues with minor harmony, and for that matter the major. Budding improvisers attention can become overly drawn to the whether the seventh is flat or not, when in fact this is very fluid in the music of Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon and so on....
Take the example of a blues. In bop and swing the first chord would usually be a major 6, so the seventh is up for grabs. It can be natural or flat. In modern jazz theory based on seventh chords, you have to make a decision, so discussion of the blues becomes rather awkward.
It also could (potentially) discourage improvisors from exploring blues sounds on standards (at least at an early stage)
That said the 6th chord is a bit of corny sound to modern ears - but then so is the major 7th now (although there are ways of making it sound better.) The 6/9 is pretty acceptable though I think.
(I also actually think triads + bass notes or compound triads give a much more contemporary sound than the seventh chords + other stacked triadic harmonies.)
But then I am coming out of this from a bop/swing direction. But there's absolutely nothing to stop me from adding the stacked triad (or fourths) thing on top of this. Then it feels like I have a proper foundation.
That said the ladder of 3rds (as I call it) in all its various incarnations is a very important structure. The Carol Kaye thing, Sheryl Bailey's family of four and Wes Montgomery's extended harmony playing all reference this.Last edited by christianm77; 01-18-2016 at 05:58 PM.
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I'll go out on a limb here, so let me know if I've got it wrong.
In the few lessons I've taken on triads, the emphasis was on building them from each note in a scale -- in other words, harmonizing the scale.
When playing over a chord progression, triads built from the root of the chord of the moment will outline the basic harmony. Triads built from the third of chord of the moment will give you rootless seventh chords, and triads built from the fifth will give you to top three notes of 9th chords. Continue this way to extend to 11th and 13th chords (always the top 3 notes).
Triads appeal to the ear, or at least the ear accustomed to traditional western music. Judicious use of triads can give the listener a sense of structure so you don't come across as just noodling over a bunch of scales.
As suggested by the OP, a chromatic approach to the first note in a triad usually works. The chromatic note might sound like a mistake (or "outside") at first, but the triad that follows makes it right.
Am I on the right track?
Here's nice tutorial on harmonized scales:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/43Last edited by KirkP; 01-18-2016 at 06:06 PM.
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Yes. Originally Posted by KIRKP
Lower chromatic neighbours always work. Coming from above you want to be more in the key (unless you are using 2 or more upper chromatics... but let's keep it simple for now)
The 1 3 5 are the main resolution sounds over any chord. That's the first step, getting those in your ears and fingers.
You can use related triads for more colourful sounds. The main one over a major chord is the minor triad built on the third of the chord. So, on a C major you could lay on an E minor and apply the same principles - a composite C maj 7 sound.
Building triads on the fifth or sixth is also common.
You can also take the basic triad and add 6's, 7's whatever you want.
They are very handy little things.
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Can you explain further this revolutionary trad-based approach in Metheny's BSL? Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Metheny's triadic approach was similar to Jarrett's and Ornette's. Triads often with foreign bass notes. But it certainly wasn't traditional jazz harmony with 7ths, altered dominants.
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Maybe we need to define what is jazz harmony and what defines it's functional movement. Then maybe the structures of those harmonies with their relationships.
Generally most music moves from active sound to less active sound... somewhat the Dominant to Tonic thing. So are we talking about the relationships within each structure...(the relationships between the notes) or the relationship to a tonic, more in the tonality direction. Different basis for organizing function of harmony...
The realization or performance of any organization is generally not the organization...How I choose to perform a type of harmonic movement is not the organization of the movement. Just like voice leading is not functional harmony... it's a method of realizing, how I want to play. Or as Christian said and might have implied... what my ears are drawn to. How I want to perform using the guidelines of harmonic motion.
Disclaimer... I have a opinion of what jazz is and how it works... it is based on pretty basic common practice. I can explain how it is organized etc... I'm just trying to get the standard conventional jazz harmony explanation from someone else...Last edited by Reg; 01-18-2016 at 10:20 PM.
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01-19-2016, 01:29 AM #42destinytot Guest
Reading the OP was time well spent. Right on!
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Well it seems to me that we can speak of triads in a rudimentary functional sort away and in an advanced way. The former is simply the 135 major minor – augmented – diminished triads . Stacked thirds, functional harmony, chord scales etc .
And then you have triads built from the seventh and 9th° of the chord. Where we get into upper structures, extensions and alterations. A major triad built on the 9th° of the chord gives you a lydian (#11) sound, in addition to the ninth and 13th° of the chord. A diminished triad built on the 7th° of the chord gives you the seventh, 9th and 11th° of the chord. Raise raise the m3 of this diminished triad and you get a #9. Etc .
A shell voicing ( R37) built from the 7th° of the chord gives you the seventh ninth and 13th of the chord.
And then you have improvisation predicated on Triad pairs.
These are all advanced concepts that I am wading through, but given that I am several thousand hours away from the proverbial 10,000, it's a work in progress. Everything is being explored, nothing is fully digested and absorbed to fullness.Last edited by NSJ; 01-19-2016 at 02:34 AM.
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My playing to a radical turn for the better in about every way when I paid closer attention to triads. Building lines and cells. Even sometimes chords alone, subtracting, adding. I find it functions better, for me, when I look at the fundamental structure without the 7 and above. Like gospel vibe, Jarrett and pop music.
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01-19-2016, 02:43 AM #45destinytot Guest
I think the OP points out an effective way of getting composite parts to mesh together for the purpose of shifting musical/expressive gear.
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Huh... I got a bunch of emails showing some great posts and questions about why we use triads, asking for a concise statement of purpose, and asking for people who teach and use them to explain. For some reason, none of those newer posts are showing up on the thread... but I'm going to bed soon and figured I'd respond now rather than wait to see if they show up.
So I've talked ad nauseam about triads and how I use them on the forum. This will be nothing new...
I personally use them for almost everything these days. Focusing on the 1-3-5-7 stacked 3rds is great. I'm not dissing it. I've never said the traditional theory is bad or wrong. I spent years doing things that way. But I always felt like I was fighting and struggling to find the interesting sounds that I wanted that way. When I started focusing on triads, all the sounds I wanted were just there. I could hear the harmonies and melodies with far more clarity.
Loop yourself playing this chord...
87978X
...and just improvise over it the way you would any C major harmony. This happens to be a CMaj9 chord. But just play over however you want for a few minutes. Now throw away the scale and improvise ONLY using the G major triad. This is the triad of the dominant chord. But you'll notice all 3 of the notes are perfectly stable and 'in' against this tonality. Play just with the triad for a few minutes until you get used to it. Now just add the E note. It's almost a G pentatonic scale... just missing a note. But focus on utilizing the E note as a tension note AGAINST the G triad. Notice how it has a sense of horizontal tension. It moves the melody lines you're playing.
Now try to resolve the lines you're improvising using the G(E) into a C note. You'll hear tension in that note. It wants to resolve down to B. Vertically and harmonically C is the root. But when you voice the chord this way, the C note is function horizontally and melodically as FA against the G triad. And just like the 4, it will feel suspended and want to resolve down.
So by focusing on a triad approach to this chord, we've created an environment where the C and the E (1 and 3) are behaving as tension notes, and the 5-7-9 (G-B-D) are functioning as the melodic tonic.
They are being stacked over another chord, yes. I've never said 7th chords have no place. Only that I found it very limiting when I thought THAT was the way to dig into jazz harmony. That's only one piece of the puzzle. Triads for me - in how I practice and organize and arrange, and build things - play a much larger role than 7th chords.
They are the doorway that helps me get away from thinking vertically and treating every maj7 chord the same... and instead allows for horizontal, melodic approaches to single note lines and to chords and helps give my ideas more clarity, direction, and forward momentum.
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So generally... harmony involves vertical arrangement of notes, which can be implied melodically. But generally harmonic function... jazz harmony is not in isolation... you need reference to chord progressions.
If you don't need 7ths to imply jazz harmony... why do you need 3rds... what is the point of any of the notes in a chord.
Why not just use root motion and add or organize the note you like with whatever method you chose... if triads are your thing use triads... if structures in 4ths are your thing, use them... 2nds whatever.
How are triads the harmonic organization of Birds tunes or Bebop...not how you can create melodic lines. How triads can explain harmony in jazz tunes...
When you play triads constructed from chord tones or scale tones... why do you choose the chord tones or scales... what is the organization for the choices. Is there a pattern of triads that imply specific function within a chord progression.
... is there a difference between the relationship(s) between a note(s) and a root as compared to relationships between notes themselfs. Jordons example is perfect example of the relationship between notes becoming stronger than the existing relationship to a root. General in progressions... there is not enough time for those relationships between notes... to change the tonal reference... unless you get into modal or tonal grooves etc... which changes the subject to Modal Harmony... which is about the relationships of the notes and which ones create types of function.
I don't think this is a trick question right, jazz harmony. Not the possibilities of how to create different or more interesting etc... relationships and develop them within jazz chord progressions and how to organize them on the guitar... or maybe I'm wrong, that is the point.
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I agree with Reg
In calssical harmony triad is in 4 voices - that's the basic way to see it in practice.
c-e-g-c1
In jazz harmony 7th chord in 4 voices
c-e-g-b
This what makes huge difference to me..
it involves different ways of harmonization of melody and bass and different voice-leading and after all it leads to very different relations - sometimes pretty close to calssical functional but sometimes very far.
Lately I begin to think of 6th chord also as of specific jazz harmony - kind of 'modification of 7th for better voicing'
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I know it's a typo but I suddenly had a wonderful image of pat in a straw boater with a banjo. Originally Posted by zdub
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Why indeed? Why do anything? Continuity. Tradition. Standing on the shoulders of giants? Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks for the detailed reply. It's hard for me to sum up 10 years of my own study of bop in a forum post... So all I can do is say this is the way it appears to me. At some point I may formulate my ideas into a book if anyone is remotely interested in reading it... I'm guessing that this is less important though than working on my playing rather than justifying myself or trying to convince people to do things the same as I do :-) but yes, parkers lines use a lot of triads, surprisingly often built on the roots of the chords. Pretty basic...
I tend to take a historical approach to jazz harmony, while I think you are content to use what works for you. Your way is probably wiser haha - do 'your thing' excellently.
However I'm not wired up that way sadly.
Also I have to say that bebop made little sense until I studied swing. Parkers harmonic language is relatively similar to the of earlier musicians, and as dizzy puts it his primary innovations are melodic and rhythmic.
In terms of other bop musicians, let alone post bop the situation is more complex. From my listening I would typify the movement into the modern seventh chord conception as somewhere towards the end of the fifties. I maybe off on that of course.
I think what happened at this stage is people started taking the famous bird quote regarding 'upper intervals' and 'coming alive' (I forget the wording) over the actual pitch content of his music. In fact the quote is misattributed: Parker never said this.
The reasons don't really matter because jazz harmony became more about upper structures regardless of the reasons... We hear it in wes's playing in the '60s for example... But then we also hear it in the music of Fats Waller..
Looking deeper into the history also clearly demonstrates the extent to which harmony isn't the distinguishing feature of what isn't and is jazz. Early jazz is often triadic, its harmony taken from western music. But that said it is also true that the treatment of things such as major 7s and 9s on major chords say in the melody was pretty free and non-classical right from the early days.
Then we have the post rock jazz thing which employs that harmony - modal progressions, triadic chords, slash chords etc - let alone more contemporary directions. So the 7th chord thing to me looks like a window of a few decades rather than a defining style. A common practice perhaps, but only because that's what people learned at college... I can't see something like that as fundamental.
So as a result I approach my teaching and playing from the point of view of working on what I think to be the very basics (such as triads) and then adding complexity. It seems to leave enough flexibility in my playing to deal with the very wide stylistic demands my playing life involves atm (many of which are self inflicted :-))Last edited by christianm77; 01-19-2016 at 07:29 AM.
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