Improvisational Ideas over a 7b9b5 chord

[jordanklemons]

Hey guys, so I've been exploring this particular type of dominant tonality recently. The 7b9b5 chord, which is created when you utilize the tritone sub triad over the original dominant chord to function as the upper structure triad.

I'm been digging into it to see what's possible, and I've also been experimenting with some ways of noting and communicating these ideas. Because of that, I don't want to say too much right off the bat. I just want to share this page. If you're interested in finding some really cool altered dominant sounds utilizing an upper structure triad, check it out.

If it doesn't make sense, please chime in and tell me what doesn't make sense and ask any questions you want. Again, I'm experimenting not only with finding different sounds, but also with the best way to communicate and notate them. So it will be really helpful to me to know if anyone is confused about anything. Hopefully it will help us both out if you ask questions.

For now, I'll leave it at that. Hope you enjoy and find some cool sounds to use.
Happy Practicing,
Jordan

[jordanklemons]

Oops... I realized after submitting that the tab is too small to read and when I tried to zoom in it got really blurry. Here's a downloadable pdf you can check out.

You guys should be able to zoom in on the pdf to see the smaller print. I was trying to squeeze a lot of info onto one page.

[fumblefingers]

I'm on a bar stool at the moment but what about a Gb7 arp and Gb Mixolydian chord scale?

bottoms up!

[jordanklemons]

Cheers FF. Don't forget one for the homies!

[Melodic Dreamer]

Thanks for the study. I enjoy your posts.
I'm so basic with this tonality. When I see C7b9b5 I think minor pentatonic a minor 3rd above and Mm from the b9 of both C and Gb, or HW diminished from the root. If I'm truly honest I still think Gb7 or F#7, take your pick?

[Melodic Dreamer]

Loving the diads. The first triad diagram reminds me of the Simpsons.

[srlank]

Damn it Jordan. Why do you have to keep coming up with such great stuff??? I'm trying to be more structured with my practice time, and you continue to make it more and more difficult. I might have to put you on my 'Ignore' list.

[bako]

What do you mean by chromatic cells?
What do the arrows represent?

Thanks.

[jordanklemons]

Thanks for the study. I enjoy your posts.
I'm so basic with this tonality. When I see C7b9b5 I think minor pentatonic a minor 3rd above and Mm from the b9 of both C and Gb, or HW diminished from the root. If I'm truly honest I still think Gb7 or F#7, take your pick?

Absolutely MD. All great options for altered dominants. And I'm not arguing against any of them. I'm just digging in a little more of a specific way to try and figure out exactly what it is that's making this bad@$$ little dude tick. He's got quite the potent sound!

Glad you like the dyads... I'm way into those. They're so great for implying movement when comping behind someone. Just playing one or two sets of those really sets the mood. I'm trying to learn the dyads like that for all of my chords this way so that I can comp through entire tunes like that. It almost reminds me of like impressionistic painting. Implying, hinting at it... but never quite giving you the whole picture. I love it.

[jordanklemons]

Damn it Jordan. Why do you have to keep coming up with such great stuff??? I'm trying to be more structured with my practice time, and you continue to make it more and more difficult. I might have to put you on my 'Ignore' list.

Hahaha... well, I could think of worse reasons to get ignored... but I still feel a little bad for messing with you practice time. I know how it is. I've been working on this process for close to a year, and it's really just starting to fully click for me. Aside from a few other specific things, there's not much else I do anymore. Sorry to clog up your own practice time. Hope you can forgive!

[wolflen]

I like some of the triads..some "ted greene stretches"..lots of ideas for moving voices and chord runs with those type of chords--the world of triads keeps on giving

thanks

[jordanklemons]

What do you mean by chromatic cells?
What do the arrows represent?

Thanks.

Ah yes, the chromatic cells and the arrows.

So one of the big arguments against this type of analysis and playing is that there's only 4 notes being utilized, so it's missing too much stuff. Everybody wants more notes.

I actually really love that characteristic of this approach. First of all... less is more... and in my ear, using less notes and having to find the 'better' notes, forces me and my ear to really go for exactly what I want to convey and not noodle and use 10 notes to say what 3 could.

But the other cool thing is that by opening things up and putting in irregular intervals (half step hear, major 3rd there, P4th, etc) it makes it a really perfect environment to insert chromatic passing tones between any 2 notes of the quadrad. The chromatic cells are what I am currently seeing as the starting point for learning to hear, think, and play that way. It's not the only what chromaticism can be thrown in, but it helps get us started. Well, it's helping me get started.

There's 4 notes in the quadrad. So if we move ascending through the quadrad starting from each note, we have 4 different ways the notes can be ordered. I decided to leap frog and jump over one, come back, jump another... to keep things angular and unexpected. The slur tying together the middle notes visually shows where the chromaticism will happen. Always between the middle 2. The arrow shows the direction. Ideally, I want the chromaticism to move AGAINST the grain of the movement of the quadrad. When the quadrad is ascending, I want the chromatic line to descend... to help create more movement and momentum in the line. Sometimes though, there's only a half step in between those 2 notes and it's not possible to insert a chromatic line in the direction I want. So in those cases, the arrow is pointing the other way to show that the direction of the chromatic line is moving a different way.

What I like to do in those cases (take for example the 2nd cell from the left in the top line of cells) is play the Bb and then the Db, just like it's written, and then drop down to the note a half step above the 1st note (B natural) and walk chromatically up to whatever the 3rd note of that cell is... in this case, the C note. Sometimes we get a longer line than this. After posting this thread, I came up with the idea to add a 'ghost' note (smaller and in parenthesis) in between the 2nd and 3rd note showing where to go back to to begin the chromatic line from. So in my updated page it shows

Bb - Db - ghost note B natural in parenthesis - ascending arrow - C - Gb

Hope that makes sense. I think the chromatic part is the trickiest to put on paper. But it's just basically looking at all 8 of the basic ways a chromatic line could be inserted inside the quadrad. Creates some really cool bop sounding lines.

[bako]

I'm noticing now that those are ascending and descending dyad pairs.
Anyway, this is not the easiest format to communicate nuanced ideas in.
A few notated or demonstrated examples of how one of these "dyad pairs"
can be chromatically expanded would go a long way in making this example clearer.
Much easier to communicate with humans gathered in the same space.

The Stefon Harris teaching video that you shared the other day, went a long way in
helping me understand the roots of your quadrad study project.

The chromatic scale or even a 7 note scale has a lot of information for both a player and a
listener to take in. Focusing on 4 note cells allows for a more detailed exploration and consequentially
understanding of what each note brings to the table.

Often, note filled phrases are just elaborations of a simpler skeletal melody.
In interpreting Bach, performers make articulation choices that reveal "hidden melody" as they conceive it.
You are working in the reverse direction, but with a similar goal of building a clearer melodic/harmonic
architecture into your improvisation.

[Reg]

I dig relationship... but isn't it just the tritone or root sub of C7b9 b5. I know you dig lydian sounds... so do I... but

Where is the chord from...is it a enharmonic spelling of C altered... or 7th degree of Db MM or 5th mode of Double Har. Maj.
Or just Diminished. Is the context... just the C7b9b5 or is the chord functioning in a tonal or modal context.

Yea the comping application of organized partial chord tones is cool... but with your examples... How do you hear the movement... any type of function... or is the point to not have function. More in the symmetrical harmonic movement application... chromatic function... always in between.

So would the next step to apply the same concept to all chords... and then create relationships...improv as you choose or hear within that organization. Or is the application more in the embellishment style.

I read through examples, which sound great... inversions of note collection.

It this in the direction of trying to find or hear a different door to creating relationships... or in direction of developing existing relationships.

The approach would not be for spelling standard changes... seems great for using modal concepts, well at least that's what it could sound like... different notes creating the organization for movement as compared to basic tonal organization. Which would lead to not just playing all the diatonic inversions of note collection... have note(s) have characteristic value which can become functional power for movement. Or not, I always dig basically just a pedal or ostinado reference and just create relationships and develop. Maybe not best for most audiences... but will develop performance skills.

Thanks for posting...

[jordanklemons]

Often, note filled phrases are just elaborations of a simpler skeletal melody.
In interpreting Bach, performers make articulation choices that reveal "hidden melody" as they conceive it.
You are working in the reverse direction, but with a similar goal of building a clearer melodic/harmonic
architecture into your improvisation.

Yeah, this is actually a pretty good description of what I'm after. I sort of see the quadrad as a structural scaffolding that I can then hang anything else I want from to ornament it with. That said, I also think that often times, the scaffolding can sound so pretty that it really doesn't need anything to dress it up. In a lot of situations, when you put together the multiple quadrads that would work over any given chord throughout a tune, that can be more than enough information to create a really wonderful solo.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the chromatic notation. I sort of knew it would be the trickiest part to communicate. I'm assuming it's going to be rare that I would ever just hand someone one of these sheets and not talk with them about it. I'm envision using them (A) for myself to stay focused in the shed and make sure I hit all of the major points I want covered, (B) for my private students who I'd be sitting with to talk and answer questions and play together, and (C) possibly one day maybe I'll put out an ebook or something... in which case I will talk in the beginning about what everything means and how it works, and maybe give a few examples. But there are around 100 chords we can create by using triads like this. So I think for the sake of not making the thing a 500 page beast, I would have to limit the information for each chord.

Anyways. Thanks a bunch for the feedback.

[jordanklemons]

I dig relationship... but isn't it just the tritone or root sub of C7b9 b5. I know you dig lydian sounds... so do I... but

Where is the chord from...is it a enharmonic spelling of C altered... or 7th degree of Db MM or 5th mode of Double Har. Maj.
Or just Diminished. Is the context... just the C7b9b5 or is the chord functioning in a tonal or modal context.

Yea the comping application of organized partial chord tones is cool... but with your examples... How do you hear the movement... any type of function... or is the point to not have function. More in the symmetrical harmonic movement application... chromatic function... always in between.

So would the next step to apply the same concept to all chords... and then create relationships...improv as you choose or hear within that organization. Or is the application more in the embellishment style.

I read through examples, which sound great... inversions of note collection.

It this in the direction of trying to find or hear a different door to creating relationships... or in direction of developing existing relationships.

The approach would not be for spelling standard changes... seems great for using modal concepts, well at least that's what it could sound like... different notes creating the organization for movement as compared to basic tonal organization. Which would lead to not just playing all the diatonic inversions of note collection... have note(s) have characteristic value which can become functional power for movement. Or not, I always dig basically just a pedal or ostinado reference and just create relationships and develop. Maybe not best for most audiences... but will develop performance skills.

Thanks for posting...

There's a lot here, let me see how succinctly I can address this Reg.

Yes, it is using the triad that's a tritone away. But I choose not to think of it that way as that type of thinking feels like it limits me in how deeply I can explore this particular sound and in how deeply I can relate this type of tonality to other types of tonalities. Thinking of it as a tritone sub will likely yield scalar and arpeggio options. This quadrad doesn't sound much like a scale or an arpeggio to me. It has it's own vibe to it. One that I like very much.

When analyzing the melody of great tunes, I find that they tend to either imply or flat out state triads all over. Often times, they are different from the triads that the harmonic progression is built on. I call this the melodic progression.

My goal is to be able to think harmonically (outlining chords) and melodically (playing through the melodic progression). I approach that by starting with whatever the triad is in the 'upper structure' of a chord (which in this process won't always have upper extensions in them) and then adding a 4th note to create movement and melodic tension.

This quadrad I posted here is the way I would approach a dominant chord if the triad being stated melodically were a tritone away. But I still think of it in the original context. I'm simply utilizing an upper structure triad. And it happens to be a fairly vague one. So it would work in the MM context and in diminished context.

Movement can be created in many ways... just like with any other improvisational/compositional tool we might use in music. Movement could potentially be inserted between the notes. Or since we have a different quadrad for each chord, we could allow the movement of the tune (both in its harmonic and melodic progression) to create movement by simply allowing the changing quadrads to create movement for us. Both are possible. Or once we get good enough, we can superimpose quadrads over each other. We could use multiple altered dominant quadrads together and move between them. Or if playing over a maj or min chord, we could jump back and forth between its quadrad and the quadrad for some type of dominant tonality that we want.

Anything is possible.

The next step, for me, is to continue what I'm currently focused on. Which is to spend time digging into individual quadrads and tonalities one at a time, and being able to play all of the variations that are included on that chart in all 12 keys anywhere on the fretboard. All while continuing to learn new tunes and analyzing their melodic progression to see how the quadrads move through them. In those instances, it's more about simply being able to improvise melodically over them. I know my triads really well, so improvising through tunes this way is very doable. But in the long run, my goal is to be comfortable enough with all of these types of chords that I can utilize single notes, dyads, 3 note structures, and chromatic movement all while improvising through the melodic progression of a tune. Which at that point, I will likely have the control to be able to leave the original melodic progression of the tune and mix and match things however I want... something I've already started experimenting with a little bit... but I have a long way to go before I'm really at the level I want to be at.

Once I do reach that level, I imagine the next step after that will be to add a 2nd tension note to each triad and develop a unique pentatonic scale for each chord, and find all the variations possible with that. Then perhaps a 6th note, etc. But honestly, there's so much great stuff I'm finding with 4 notes... I don't think I'll start adding more notes to these for at least a few years.

Does that help it make sense?

[jordanklemons]

the world of triads keeps on giving

It sure does. Never seems to stop!

[jordanklemons]

I thought it might be worth sharing a few videos I posted in the past here... putting them all together into one post so you guys can see some of the options available in this way.

This is me demonstrating a couple of ideas using these quadrads over Bye Bye Blackbird up to the bridge. I intentionally kept the first many measures just as F (with no 1 6 2 5 stuff going on) and the next many just as G-. I did that on purpose for simplicity. But if we did superimpose chord movement, it would change the melodic progression as well, and it would yield more movement. Both are options. The first take is just PURE quadrad. Nothing added. The 2nd take I did the same thing but allowed chromatic movement.

Here's a riff over a V I that I made using the 7b9b5 idea with chromaticism resolving to its major chord.

Here's a riff for an altered dominant chord. It's made of two different quadrads connected by a short chromatic line.

Practicing dyads up and down the fretboard over a ii V I.

Same thing but arpeggiated

Comping/soloing over a ii V I VI

Might help to hear what these little guys sound like. So here's some uses for them.

[Reg]

Hey Yea Jordon... it makes sense. And I dig the approach, better than the 4th thing. Although, I'll be interested to hear how you apply to live setting with other instruments. You know the use of 2nds tends to get thick... but from your example of II V I VI ... seems like your on cool path.
Thanks for reply, always dig your directions and playing...

[jordanklemons]

And I dig the approach, better than the 4th thing.

Thanks Reg. Was curious what you meant by the 4th thing. You mean like the McCoy 4ths thing? The quartal stuff? Wasn't sure if you meant something else, like the idea of using 4 notes.

[jdaguitar2]

Thank you for your hard work and for sharing it on this forum

[jordanklemons]

Thank you for your hard work and for sharing it on this forum

No worries Mike. I love this stuff! Thanks for checking it out.