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As for the other part of OP, that is repeating something you've actually heard in real world, I think Princeplanet may be partialy right, but as many have suggested, it goes both ways, some lines are more suitable for particular instruments, less for the other.
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01-14-2016 02:45 AM
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good question ... I think i hear all kinds of different soundsWhat is the sound I should hear? Sound of guitar, of my own voice, ...?
its like if you recall a well known recording
in your head
Thats deep man ...How far ahead should I hear?
If I hear way ahead, would not listening to two lines of music simultaneously make it more difficult to play?
I currently believe the experience of 'pre-hearing' also the experience of hearing
a tune in your head is semi-linear ...
like overlapping playing cards spread out
in a line on a table (in the direction of the arrow of time)
each card is a piece of the music in time
a bar or so in duration ...
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That's good idea. I think it can not be linear. It must be quant job, coming in chunks. That is if you are to have one level of mind, or say it's all processed in the same brain center for "something". *
Originally Posted by pingu
It could be linear if you concentrate either on what you play and have the backing music just a bare reference, or on the contrary, concentrate on backing while letting your fingers on auto pilot. If you move concentraation from one to another, I think you are back into quantum world, buffering info at one moment only to let it go in another ...
*I think it is two different brain centers responsible for hearing vs. playing, but I think "virtual " and real hearing are done by the one and the same.
Only in virtual the physical sense of heaaring is cut out.Last edited by Vladan; 01-14-2016 at 04:02 AM.
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When I look at a piece of sheet music written out on G clef or bass clef for piano (I don't do horns nor have horn envy), I "hear" the music. Why? Because I've been reading classical guitar and other types of notation for over fifty years. I could "hear" the music when I was fourteen or fifteen. Some of the things that people think are unusual are simply good musicianship.
Let's try and think analytically about improvising single lines at fast tempos on guitar or any instrument. If in the example Prince P. suggested a guitarist is not capable of echoing or mimicking or call and answer responding to a horn player and taking a minute to figure out what was played and where to play it on the guitar..... that guy has a long way to go. Simply put, he or she does not have the chops yet.
I don't like the term "prehear" much, but if you are playing even a medium tempo song, you don't have much time to prehear anything in the moment. I think it is much more a question of anticipation of where the melody and harmony are going. You have to anticipate in your mind where the music is headed based on listening.
There is also something to be said about neurophysiology. Ever notice when you see videos of guitarists how their mouths twitch sometimes as they play? In the motor cortex the amount of grey matter devoted to motor innervation of the hands is enormous and is in the same area of the motor cortex of the brain as the mouth and hands. I think that twitch is the 'spillover' of the neural activity. Of course, will practice you can learn to suppress it.
But in the end there is more than a metaphorical connection between your actual voice and speaking and playing improvised guitar lines. In my opinion that is why you can learn to scat what you are actually playing on guitar or vice versa. The guitar becomes your 'voice' and you integrate the same 'intentionality' to the lines you are playing as the phrase you are scatting vocally. Practice.
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In improvisation you don't have to "prehear" every single note. Just the target tones. Your destination from your starting point. Your mind "fills in" the rest.
I think the musical phrase in your mind is like a quantum chunk in the form of a musical hologram that you create in the moment - we are talking milliseconds here. It simply cannot be o-n-e n-o-t-e at a time. Too cumbersome and slow.Last edited by targuit; 01-14-2016 at 05:45 AM.
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I think you are correct. Prominent notes will tend be on rythmic accents with passing tones/ghost note etc less 'present.' That's how I tend to hear lines at tempo. Originally Posted by targuit
Sooooo.... Philosophy aside, what can we do to develop our pre-hearing skills?
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Btw jay, I found your explanation of the famous guitar gurn/chew fascinating...
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Guys, there's been enough threads about "Hearing what you play", was hoping we could get back on topic which was specifically about how trying to play what you hear is harder on guitar than other instruments.
Here's another slant on it, let's say we have an imaginary filter on our guitar that only allows notes to sound if you sing the exact notes just before you play them. You sing Bb and you play Ab, then no sound. How different would you play? Sure, slow lines , no problem, but fast bop lines with lots of chromatics? I say we'd do worse than horn and piano players, and not just because many of us came from rock/blues noodling beginnings, but also because of the nature of the instrument as discussed in my earlier posts.
I'd like to be wrong (might make me feel better
), but I really can't be....
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I messed around on trombone for a few weeks and noticed this. Really interesting .... Originally Posted by Jonah
Last edited by christianm77; 01-14-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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Yes ! a series of these Holograms , the playing cards I refered to in another thread maybe ... Originally Posted by targuit
think of lying in bed with your current song you're working on going round your head
(you know this !)
for me the music comes in patches or 'areas' which overlap , ie they're not linear
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I'd say we do worse because we are worse musicians. Sorry to be blunt but that's just the way it is. It's the way it is for me for sure. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Guys, there's been enough threads about "Hearing what you play", was hoping we could get back on topic which was specifically about how trying to play what you hear is harder on guitar than other instruments.
Here's another slant on it, let's say we have an imaginary filter on our guitar that only allows notes to sound if you sing the exact notes just before you play them. You sing Bb and you play Ab, then no sound. How different would you play? Sure, slow lines , no problem, but fast bop lines with lots of chromatics? I say we'd do worse than horn and piano players, and not just because many of us came from rock/blues noodling beginnings, but also because of the nature of the instrument as discussed in my earlier posts.
I'd like to be wrong (might make me feel better ), but I really can't be....
Let me put it that way, can you play what you hear one finger no technique at a piano keyboard? That's probably the most logical instrument. In fact I find it harder (unless I think and use solfege.) I have some intuition with the guitar because I play it everyday. But it's not foolproof.
Sorry to bore everyone further on the subject, but this is something I see everyday - my missus is an excellent sight singer and a decent amateur cellist. She is currently learning guitar. While the tuning of the guitar gives her pause for thought, she has relatively little trouble busking melodies riffs and so on on real time from records etc and memory. It's humbling.
Chords in the other hand are much harder, technique etc for her. If I was her teacher, thas what I would focus on. I have other students like her who started on instruments like the violin and sax.
Something else that made me laugh was whether teacher asked her to improvise using e blues scale. Her response was telling 'I don't know what these notes sound like' I laughed and said that wouldn't bother most learning guitar players. So there you go.
Guitarists just have bad ears and play with their eyes/fingers.
Re the filter. Well yes. That's what I need to develop imo.
Have you tried this exercise? Silently (with your right hand completely muting the strings somewhere along their length, so you hear no pitch from fretting the note) finger and sing a the pitch (or hear a note in you head if you are honest with yourself!) now play it and see if they are the same.
Build up to short phrases.
I think it would probably change the way you play. For the better (I have done this a little bit, but writing this makes me want to practice this way more.)
Also works for transcription, and reading, of course.
In short, don't make excuses. Don't argue about this on jazzguitar.be. Go and practice it. Sorry to be harsh, but I wish I'd realised this 20 years ago. This is my sincerest advice, take it or leave it.
Learning music isn't about our egos. I would rather be aware of areas where I am no so advanced. I'm trying to let go of the desire to lie to myself to make me feel better. On the other hand I'm trying to see it all as a process and a voyage of discovery. Failure is nothing to be scared of. Not trying is. And ignorance might be bliss but it won't get you gigs;-)
Of course having lessons with a teacher (usually someone whose playing I admire) was always a cold blast of reality. But something I started to see as fun and inspiring. Improving my ear was certainly something that came up.
Perhaps there is a very good point to be made that the nature of the instrument dussuades us from developing our ear. I would certainly agree with that. I think this could be offset with better teaching (not using tab after the beginners level, etc)Last edited by christianm77; 01-14-2016 at 09:40 AM.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with hearing what I might play in my mind, but the flow of what I'm hearing gets interrupted by my inability to play it! I don't know how others hear stuff, but if I listen to Bird for an hour, I can go for a walk and improvise Bird-like phrases in my head for as long as I like. If I pick up the guitar, then I'm spending too much time trying to work out what I'm hearing to really keep any flow going. What happens instead is that what I play, whether it was fully intentioned or not, tends to influence what I hear next, and the approximate expression of that leads me to the next phrase etc etc... Originally Posted by christianm77
I touched on a possible solution for myself earlier, as no-ne really picked up on it I'll restate it- learn as many musical "words" as possible. I'm starting to do this, starting with 4, 8 and 16 note "words" that I can play in all 5 CAGED positions. If I can play words as easily as I can speak them, then I avoid any apprehension when using them, the fingers on both hands just know what to do. I've got around a hundred words per chord type per position and am working on the next challenge which is to link them, hopefully as fluently as the words that come out of my mouth!
This in turn is influencing what I hear, so instead of hearing, say, Bird phrases, I can start to hear the words I know and get good at mixing them up on the fly to keep it interesting and meaningful, again, just like regular language.
Hardly a new idea, in fact, I thought it would be common, yet this method of organising one's vocab doesn't get mentioned too much around here....
EDIT- just saw Christians post immediately above where he does mention short phrases! Also @ Christian, I agree with your post, well, most of your posts actually....
Last edited by princeplanet; 01-14-2016 at 09:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Guys, there's been enough threads about "Hearing what you play", was hoping we could get back on topic which was specifically about how trying to play what you hear is harder on guitar than other instruments.
Here's another slant on it, let's say we have an imaginary filter on our guitar that only allows notes to sound if you sing the exact notes just before you play them. You sing Bb and you play Ab, then no sound. How different would you play? Sure, slow lines , no problem, but fast bop lines with lots of chromatics? I say we'd do worse than horn and piano players, and not just because many of us came from rock/blues noodling beginnings, but also because of the nature of the instrument as discussed in my earlier posts.
I'd like to be wrong (might make me feel better ), but I really can't be....Sorry this is in reply to your second quote. My iPhone quotes both and then it's a pain to delete. Originally Posted by princeplanet
That sounds like a good practice exercise, one of many. I find transposing bop phrases by ear into different keys a fun exercise...
Can I ask a question- when you are trying to play phrases by ear, how fast are you typically doing this?
I don't thinking when actually playing/performing/blowing you should be too critical of your internal process btw - you can't watch and do at the same time. It's like quantum mechanics - observation changes the experiment haha.
But you can practice getting closer to it.
The fact that ideas like this aren't mentioned on the forum is a shame. Sounds like you are on the right track, and if you feel frustrated that's because it's hard. I feel the same sometimes. But I know I've improved and I don't think however good I get at this I will ever feel 'complete.'
Some might see this as lack of confidence in ones abilities. I see it as being honest with yourself. the confidence isn't for the practice room - it's for when you need a gig.
But realism and pragmatism are attractive qualities in a person. I would rather hire someone like that.
Anyway, keep going!
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It would be interesting to have a scatting competition between horn players, pianists and guitarists to see how well we conceive improvised musical phrases in our minds. Would all instrumentalists be equally good at this? If not, then is it because better quality "mind" musicians are attracted to certain instruments (does the piano attract the best "ears" ? ). Originally Posted by christianm77
Or can it be that the instrument itself further shapes and influences what the player hears?
Either way, we're at the bottom of the totem pole, yet struggling away on the most difficult of instruments at one of the most difficult types of music. Are Jazz guitarists the most frustrated musicians on the planet? We gotta be up there....
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I think he may be wrong, though. IME, virtual chewing gum is a sign of focusing and concentration, going for fine level of precision. Originally Posted by christianm77
I chew virtual bubblegum when aiming the shot in billiards. Hardly any hand movement there, but quite some engaging of fine muscles.
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I agree with the notion generally, but I also think it's just harder to be a good musician on this instrument. C to Eb "feels" like one thing basically on the saxophone. On the guitar basically feels like two, five, seven, 12 different things? Originally Posted by christianm77
Those who do it well on guitar, have a very holistic understanding of the entire fretboard, relationships of intervals, and deep understanding of absolute pitch anywhere on the fretboard. In my mind this is a much broader, holistic , deep understanding than is required to do the same on most other instruments with a firmer sense of kinesthetic pitch.
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I'm not sure about that exercise. To have it right you'd have to have perfect pitch, so to know how each note sound and at the same time to have good and precise singing voice to sing it correctly. Finally, you have to have some pitch recognition to hear if what you sing and what you play is of the same pitch. There is so much chance the exercise will end bad, I don't think it's worth trying. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think that's how things are and there's no way to be any different, unless you prepare everything way in advance and rehearse it well. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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8ths at 280 (as well as 16ths at 140). So moderately fast I guess. I can improvise on many different kinds of patterns and devices as well as "words" or "cells" (as some people call them) and play on simple vamps for hours just joining stuff I know with stuff I'm making up. I trip up on the stuff I'm making up, but it's the hundreds of hours of trial and error that gives me glimpses of what might be possible one day. Originally Posted by christianm77
Sometimes, in moments of transcendence, it almost feels like the fingers are making more musical sense than my conscious mind is able to, like my fingers are somehow "listening" and landing phrases instinctively. I've read about this sensation from players who seem to inhabit that headspace habitually. Sometimes I can talk without thinking, so I know that playing (well) without thinking is something humans are capable of. It's like the pre run before the triple jump, you don't know how many steps you're going to run, you don't count them, or measure them, but you just know that by the time you get to the line, you'll somehow instinctively time your run up so your toe hits the line....
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Hey, where do we buy your records? If above is true, you're at very high pro level. Originally Posted by princeplanet
As far as I could see, triple jumpers, long jumpers, high jumpers, pole vaulters, ... they all count and measure their steps and put marks along the running path so they would know exactly how many steps to the line ... Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Haha, I'm sure you're right, maybe I was thinking of my own high school sports experience ! Originally Posted by Vladan
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Out of last 5 bands I witnessed playing Jazz, with a guitar, I can guarantee none of the guitar players would be able to do what you've described in that message above. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Well then maybe they don't deserve an audience either! Originally Posted by Vladan
I think I may have inadvertently made it sound more impressive than it really is. The real truth is I suck balls, but I really do expect to be listenable in 5 years time...
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Yes. Many frustrations in the jazz guitarists life. Originally Posted by princeplanet
It would be interesting to have a scatting competition between horn players, pianists and guitarists to see how well we conceive improvised musical phrases in our minds. Would all instrumentalists be equally good at this? If not, then is it because better quality "mind" musicians are attracted to certain instruments (does the piano attract the best "ears" ? ).
Or can it be that the instrument itself further shapes and influences what the player hears?
Either way, we're at the bottom of the totem pole, yet struggling away on the most difficult of instruments at one of the most difficult types of music. Are Jazz guitarists the most frustrated musicians on the planet? We gotta be up there....
Oh come on Originally Posted by Vladan
1) You start with a reference pitch. Although you may find you can hear absolute pitches on the instruments. Open strings in particular.
2) you don't have to sing out loud as I said before. Although you may want to keep the notes in a place that's comfortable to sing if you do. At least until you develop your ability to sing up and down octaves where required.
3) 'End bad?' i don't know what that means even. Failure is learning. Look - if practice isn't kicking your ass, you aren't doing it right. Don't be a wuss ;-) if this exercise frightens you, it's probably what you should be doing. 5 mins a day. Don't worry about being horrible at it. You will improve.
Also if you don't have any pitch recognition between your ears and the fret board, what on earth are you doing playing the guitar?
You may find you are better at this than you think. I was.
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You might hearing longer melodic or harmonic phrases. I'm sure you can hear the differences between chords. Probable hear standard chord patterns...II V's I VI II V. Cycles... Same with short melodic phrases. My point... I don't have perfect pitch, I do have relative pitch.... and since I play too much... my relative pitch is basically perfect....because I always have a reference.
Your point about about hearing more than one note at a time is in this direction.... You can hear scales, maybe arpeggios
So you hear short phrase... doesn't really matter how fast. I believe that just becomes a technique issue, anyway I hear targets... note or chord targets. And the filler just becomes recognizing what type of filler it is. This becomes pretty easy after you begin to recognize the filler types. Generally breaks in filler material become targets.
Might not be breaking this down that well... but I hear a two bar phrase and really only hear the targets and type of filler.
Melodies just become target notes with relationship to a chord... and filler, usually to help define the style and feel
So maybe a bebop line over I VI II V just becomes a few notes over a few of the chords... and the filler is generally from the changes or related to
That's how I hear and also how I play... when I'm soloing or playing a melody or harmony line etc... I'm always playing the noted with a chord below.... on my guitar... my fingering reflects what chord or harmonic area I'm referencing.
I don't really or wouldn't want perfect pitch... I want what I hear to have a tonal reference...and my playing also.
This is not really in the direction of how to develop the ability to hear... more in the direction of how to frame what you hear and play... references
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