Guitar Positions

[PMB]

If you want proof that there's no universal standard for CAGED, start doing some research on Melodic Minor fingerings based on CAGED. Honestly, the whole thing falls apart. There's no consensus, and everybody is all over the place with their own variations of where the shifts should be. Oh, and a lot of people who are CAGED players use all kinds of stretches once they get to melodic minor!! IMO examination of melodic minor and trying to get your head around it with CAGED is where it really jumps the shark.

I'm sure Roberts, Pass et al. have good approaches for it. Just be careful saying that you "know" what CAGED is and what it isn't because you'll look like Fox Mulder trying to convince someone of the Mothman or something. You don't know. You just don't. Everybody plays different fingerings over those chords. The chords themselves are the only constant (and they're not either).

The difficulty is that CAGED, as its name suggests, is based upon chord forms rather than the more abstract grid found with 7 position fingerings for instance. The majority of these forms (E, A, D) are voiced without a 3rd in their lower octave (R, 5, R, 3). As the 3rd determines the major/minor quality, that leaves some guesswork.

Two of the more practical solutions are either basing each minor fingering upon the relative major form (ok, Am, F#m, Em, C#m, Bm isn't quite so catchy but a least the underlying chord shape remains pretty much intact) or converting each form to its parallel minor. In this case, stretches can be minimised by playing scale forms that begin on the root, 2nd finger from the 1st finger instead (4th finger-based forms remain the same). Regardless of which procedure is employed, the same scale shapes (albeit reordered) will be produced so the difference is really a conceptual one.

[matt.guitarteacher]

On the second point, yeah the minor scales present some choices on shifts and fingerings if avoiding stretches is the goal.
i have my favorites, which align pretty closely with some published treatises on the topic. no big deal. admittedly they're a bit of a challenge, just like stretches are in the lower area of the fret board.

Sorry. Slightly mixing my own opinion (last statement) with facts I observed.

My main point was that, especially with melodic minor, there's no such thing as a CAGED consensus.

[christianm77]

Jimmy Brunno denies the existance of melodic and harmonic minors if I'm right. So there's no problem

Does he? That's jolly interesting. Kind of makes me want to study his theory.

[boatheelmusic]

Jimmy Brunno denies the existance of melodic and harmonic minors if I'm right. So there's no problem

In my studies with Jimmy I could not conclude this....he just doesn't teach in these terms.

I have no doubt he is intimately familiar with all aspects of playing jazz guitar.

Just listen to him play if you're in doubt.

[katamaranos]

In my studies with Jimmy I could not conclude this....he just doesn't teach in these terms.

I have no doubt he is intimately familiar with all aspects of playing jazz guitar.

Just listen to him play if you're in doubt.

Let's say one thing, Jimmy is a Great player. Without any doubt one of the best. But some aspects of his teaching seemed strange, at least to me. Why not to call cmaj "pitch collection" with g# a harm min scale?

[Reg]

Thank you for your reply Reg. I went thru seven positions playing arpeggios ascending-descending. One thing I noticed is that 7th position (Locrian) has some advantages started with 3rd finger, because starting with 2nd involves some 3rd-4th fingers stretches. Started with 3rd also involves some of them, but hmm... they feel less awkward, at least for me.
I've got another question, during a performance, do you stay in a position for a long time? I'm asking because I noticed that in a performance situation I tend to shift for sake of fingering things with 3 fingers or at least avoid stretches - it often feels better. For example 2nd (dorian) position - minor 7 arpeggio played on strings 4321 with 4221 (I prefer that) or 4321 fingers feel a little unnatural. I think I almost always shift my hand to play this starting with 3rd finger. With seven positions (2nd finger on root) you theoretically don't play this arpeggio this way (if you are strict "positionalist"? )
EDIT: Or maybe with neck mapped by seven positions you use any fingering you want?

Sorry for late reply...Yes I use both 2nd and 3rd finger for locrian... same reasoning. I believe on most of my charts I usually post both.

And I move around all the time... for performance effects , articulations etc... In the end the neck just becomes one big fingering

And when I'm playing the dorian arpeggio on top 4 strings that is still based on root 6... so the 4221 fingering is what the basic reference is. So if I'm playing A-7... the reference is 6th string 5th fret. 4th position with 1st finger stretches.

When I'm playing in the top 4 strings... thats still my reference. I use the 2nd finger references from 6th string only... when I'm play on other strings... my basic reference is still that 6th st 5th fret A... as long as my reference is "A".

Is that what you were referring to when using derivative and parallel to organize source of fingerings.

So in the process of getting your neck together... I did use both systems of thinking in that process of the neck becoming one big fingering.

But not now... if I'm thinking or hearing "A" minor dorian.... the basic reference or starting point is 6th string 5th fret "A"

and if I'm performing up in 9th position... creating relationships from Dmixo.... my reference is still that 6th string 5th fret "A". If I change my reference from "A" dorian to "D" mixo. my reference becomes 6th string 10th fret.

The fingerings are all just organized physical methods for me to perform. They're all "A" dorian... if I modal interchange to "A" melodic minor... the fret organization just changes... a different grid drops on neck.

Generally .... one octave, becomes two octaves.... then all seven positions.... now just one big fingering. The fingerings and their organization are just to help me realize what I want to perform... or am sight readings etc...

[katamaranos]

Thank you Reg for your kind responses. Forgive me my curiosity please, but how do you approach augmented and diminished scales? I found them hardest to finger in a position, 3 and 4 nps always felt most natural. Also how about 3octave scales? Any set fingerings? Notes per position or string? Or maybe totally spontaneous situation?

[Reg]

... no there are no three octave fingerings in one position... that's why you get the fretboard to become one big fingering. I generally choose where or what position I'm performing on what sets up the best articulations and creates somewhat natural feel for style of music I'm performing. So I might jump up and down the neck just to stay on top two or three strings... because of the sound and accents naturally created from the fingerings and picking. If I'm on a solid body or a guitar where there is no sound difference... my choices are just made for the rhythmic patterns created from fingerings.
So Unless I'm performing a memorized composition etc... there are no three octave patterns... any position can transition to the next on any string... based of what I'm performing.

As far as Diminished or whole tone I don't use them unless I have to. And yea I do use the 3 note per string with position change for Diminished and whole tone works fine in position with 1st finger stretches.
Augmented... I can't remember the last time... probable back when I played shows etc... So... C D# E G G# B generally use the inverse... or B C ...D# E...G G#...B C would probably use starting with low E and going up numbers are fingers..
3 4
2 3
1 2 s4
1 4
1 4
s1 3 4

Most of my positional references are related to sight reading. Generally what ever I can play without watching hands and neck.

[katamaranos]

Again, thank you for response. And I made a mistake - was thinking about whole tone scale but I wrote "augumented" . Lol I didn't even know such a scale exists... Forgive me, as you surely noticed I'm not a native speaker.