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I know of no hard-and-fast rule describing what it means to know a tune. I'm not asking for one. Rather, I'd like to hear from all sorts of players on this---when you sense you "really know" a tune, what does that mean for you?
Playing it in 12 keys?
Able to solo through 2-3 choruses without exhausting your limits on those changes?
Able to make the melody sing on your instrument and comp to propel the band?
Something else?
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12-25-2015 05:17 PM
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when you can talk and play it at the same time. when you don't need to think about the changes or the melody.
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when someone calls it and you
go 'yeah right' lets do that
OT
I don't know tunes in all keys or anything
i mean could you play Stella now in F or G
i couldn't ....
in reality in my world tunes aren't called
in anything much but the known keys
or maybe a couple of common keys
green dolphin gets called in C or Eb for example
do people say "hey lets do ipanima in Db"
(unless its a singer)
singers usually bring charts and you've just got to comp and play half a chorus solo ...Last edited by pingu; 12-25-2015 at 07:33 PM.
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i that case , i know nothing !
Originally Posted by nick1994
oh well back to the drawing board ....
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I've always had trouble memorizing song so what it means to me might be different. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Knowing a song mean know the melody and harmony, some lyrics, and being able to play it with a group or simple solo version. Need be able to play in sounding like a singer with good phrasing and dynamics and not sound like playing an exercise.
To really know a song then being about to transpose to other keys, good comp'ing, and embellish the melody, having intro and ending.
I don't think of improvising as part of the learning a song, its part of learning to improvise in different situations.
For me knowing a song is knowing the melody and chords in the common key(s).
Really knowing the same song is being about to playing it in other styles, keys, create arrangements, you can do what you want or the musical setting requries with it.
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End all be all right here:
You know the tune when you can hear the song in your head and you always know exactly where you are in the piece
That means:
1. Hearing root movement
2. Hearing the melody
3. Hearing chord tones
4. Hearing extensions and altered notes
5. Hearing guide tone movement
6. Hearing basic dyadic movement
7. Hearing basic bass lines
Note that none of that includes playing...
By that standard, I don't really know any tune as of yet. I know tunes superficially. But hearing a tune allows you to really make the tune your own and not just "going through the changes"
I will let you know when I can actually follow these steps to completion...
Yikes...
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For me all of the above of irez87. But for me it's playing. I don't learn tunes when it doesn't involve playing them. I don't have to know the tune in all keys. One will do. But I have to know and be able to play the song without thinking about it. I see the changes without thinking about them. Rhythmic changes and cells. Melody. I know the bridge and various alternative changes and endings/intros. I can just play without effort. No effort at all.
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much of the above plus ..being able to play it at any given point.." lets take it from the B section.." ..
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If I can call it and play it well (for my non-pro standards) at a gig after not having played it or practiced it for at least a month.
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Well, the original keys for Stella and Ipanema are G and Db respectively so maybe it's worth checking those out Originally Posted by pingu
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How do you know when you got a tune under your belt? These guys have something to say...
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I think it changes as your ability improves haha. Tunes I thought I knew I now feel need relearning...
For me:
Structure AABA ABAC etc
Tune (lyrics can be a great help)
Root movement of the chords
Harmony structure - any clear modulation in the middle 8 etc
Once you have those four things you have a really strong basis. Middle voices can be sketched in. You should be able to work out all the chords of a standard from these elements and be able to see where there are openings for variations.
Then I pick up the guitar and play the tune. Then the bass. Then the two together. Then the chords without the melody. Perhaps a simple solo arrangement too.
I like to sing the song.
From here on maybe listen to a few versions, see if there are any common subs in use
This works for vocal standards. Jazz compositions are slightly different in that the harmony often works in a less melody centred way...
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you got me ! Originally Posted by PMB
Well, the original keys for Stella and Ipanema are G and Db respectively so maybe it's worth checking those out
wow thats weird ... I just picked those keys at random ....
I will check em out , ta
take5 in Gb = Ebmin is a strange one innit ?
you wouldn't think a horn player would
want to blow in six flats would you !
is it played in F = Dmin often ?
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Depends who you hang with. Originally Posted by pingu
But being able to play a tune instantly in all 12 means you have properly learned it.
There are two ways to do this - using functional analysis or by ear. I think the latter is better, but the two can be combined using solfege for example...
In the trad world it is very common to transpose tunes to different keys at the drop of a hat. The harmony is simpler though (on the surface), but if you can take After You've Gone around the keys that's not bad...
I think transposing is a fantastic way to learn to understand functional harmony.
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Horns like flats... It's the sharps they hate... Don't know why... Originally Posted by pingu
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For me I know a tune completely when I can transpose it on the spot to any key without effort. I learn tunes differently now than I did when I first began. The main difference is that now I actually seek the earliest recorded version and learn from that. I find that learning it by ear helps me to memorise the tune very fast. I also feel it helps to know the lyrics. I like to play new tunes I'm learning in their simplest form before I go about jazzing them up. I don't know how many tunes I know but between the various genres that I perform I'd guess at somewhere in the 2-3 hundred. I will gig today a 6 hour brunch with no book and then later tonight a 4 1/2 hour club gig no book. For each of these projects we add new tunes every month just to keep it fresh. In my experience using the real book was a liability, I wish I had learned tunes like this from the start. And I'm not gonna B.S anybody iReal Pro has saved my butt a few times, I wish I knew all the tunes but I don't, not yet, soon though...lol !!!
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Not many people still play Stella in G but Benson does: Originally Posted by pingu
As for Ipanema, it was probably written in F (the only manuscript I've come across in Jobim's hand is in that key and he normally played it in F on the guitar):
https://songbook1.files.wordpress.co...tration_11.jpg
However, the famous Getz/Gilberto version is in Db:
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you know you know when you "own" it
was originally drawn to n94's talking while playing answer, but you can be just reciting it..an excercise...to "own it" is to be in the moment with it and making it your own
cheers
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replace hearing with singing and you're on the money Originally Posted by Irez87
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Jim Hall recorded Stella in G. It's the "other" key I sometimes play Stella in with other people, but to be honest it's been a while! Originally Posted by PMB
Jazzers should not be averse to G though - Sonny Rollins wrote at least a couple great tunes in G well worth learning: Pent Up House and Paul's Pal, both great tunes that sit nicely on the guitar.Last edited by coolvinny; 12-26-2015 at 10:49 PM. Reason: typo. cold fingers.
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That's exactly what I meant Originally Posted by jazzguy100
But that process is freaking hard, man!
So far, this process is the only way I can truly gauge if I know a tune. The process takes a month per tune (at least) and it is really slow going. But the end point is more freedom on the tune, and I like that part.
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G is the best key Originally Posted by coolvinny
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Not to state the obvious, but there is nothing like having to work on tunes because you're playing with people. You have to be responsible for your parts and know them stone cold. Because you are held accountable. It's a simple as that.
Right now, I am working on seven standards for a duet situation with a singer Who is a really good singer.
I want to be able to start the sessions where I don't even have to think about about the tunes.
One aspect of this in this particular situation that is very useful is to play that tune with the guide tunes- three note voicings. Not only will you know the tune, but this is great for comping and for chord solos. You can then create fluid three note voicings on the fly that our first and foremost melodic and can create a nice countermelody to the singers melody while also addressing the changes via the guide tones.
Today I'm working on "stairway to the stars ". At some point, I'll have to break out Wes' version-- which is the very summit of the song As played by a guitar player .
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I love "Pent Up House." As for G, though, jazz guitarists seem partial to the key! It lays out nicely on the instrument. Here's a couple examples. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Herb Ellis and Joe Pass did a duet called "Blues in G" that has many YouTube versions by various duets (-or sometimes a single doing both parts in split screen.)
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well yeah, you can't get lost because you're playing with people, but you can't be gettin lost on your own either. If you need some sort of crutch to help you keep the form then you ain't learning tunes right. if you can't get through the tune solo then you can't get through the tune. Originally Posted by NSJ
Not to state the obvious, but there is nothing like having to work on tunes because you're playing with people. You have to be responsible for your parts and know them stone cold. Because you are held accountable. It's a simple as that.
Right now, I am working on seven standards for a duet situation with a singer Who is a really good singer.
I want to be able to start the sessions where I don't even have to think about about the tunes.
One aspect of this in this particular situation that is very useful is to play that tune with the guide tunes- three note voicings. Not only will you know the tune, but this is great for comping and for chord solos. You can then create fluid three note voicings on the fly that our first and foremost melodic and can create a nice countermelody to the singers melody while also addressing the changes via the guide tones.
Today I'm working on "stairway to the stars ". At some point, I'll have to break out Wes' version-- which is the very summit of the song As played by a guitar player .
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