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Sometimes I get a lot out of studying something I don't like if only if it makes me understand exactly what it is I dislike so I can remove it from my music as much as possible.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Creating a style is as much about what you omit as what you include. To create a specific style in harmony is similar. Say for example it's your taste never to play major seventh chords.... How would that affect your sound? What would you learn from avoiding them?
Some modern harmonists are is interesting for what they don't play as what they do. Say for example you have a consciously very limited pallete but you apply it very intelligently...Last edited by christianm77; 11-26-2015 at 12:00 PM.
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11-26-2015 11:57 AM
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Yeah note for note realization can range from challenging to impossible. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
That said there is no reason we can't learn from what is being played on piano, in horn sections, in string quartets, etc.
There is no limit to the level of harmonic knowledge we can pursue.
The trick then is exploring this knowledge at the edge of our technical abilities and devising strategies to imply the essence of our favorite discoveries.
When we spend enough time with any material, bit by bit it can begin to seep into our real time improvisations.But regarding composed music vs improvisation, it is interesting to think of how much can be accomplished, harmonically, when there's time to think about it then write it down.
Toggling between compositional and improvisational approaches is in my opinion likely to improve both games.
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Bako, from your posts and conversation I feel like you may have thoughts about folks who may be doing very interesting things with harmony in these modern times? For some reason I feel a need to limit my question to our twelve note per octave system.
I know that a lot of saxophonists work on ways of freeing themselves from key centers and familiar side stepping patterns. My ability to comment on the issue ends about there...
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I think some respect is due where it has been earned. You don't have to like him, but the things that Ben has made possible on guitar (maybe just for himself) are pretty incredible. I'm not even going to get into the voicings thing, because those are pretty crazy, but just getting into harmonic ideas, the sounds he combines are pretty jarring for many people, even for few who are used to hearing pretty out there music. I'm not trying to compare (or liken) the two, but a lot of people say the same thing about Schoenberg, how his music can sound annoying, but he's one of the biggest contributors in 20th century music, not only in music but also in ideas and theories. Ben has been contributing a lot to the guitar and it's possibilities for a while now. You should also research a little more regarding Ben. He's also been big into incorporating a lot of Ligetian harmonic ideas into guitar and his music. And if you're familiar with Ligeti at all, you'd know this isn't just some random stuff played on a drone. Originally Posted by targuit
I haven't been able to find a good summary of it. He hasn't written much about it (or anything at all). The little I know about it has been from just talking to him (but the last time I asked him stuff, I still had trouble playing ii-V-Is, so...) Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Steve Coleman uses some of these approaches, on his old website there's a few old charts and a "how to read this" page, which sort of explains Steve's take on it, he sort of adapted his symmetry system into it (which is similar to Bartok's idea of symmetry, and there is a lot to read about Bartok and symmetry. Find a book written by Elliot Antokoletz).
The other thing you could maybe try checking out is Braxton's Tri-Axiom theory stuff. He wrote plenty of books on it, but they're expensive. If you have the chance of taking a lesson or hanging out with someone who plays/played with Braxton, that might be someone to ask about the stuff. The Threadgill thing is sort of closely associated to the Braxton thing.
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jtizzle, great, thanks! I'll look into it all.
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I agree... Ben Monder and Tim Miller are pushing the harmonic spectrum .....Especially Monder... His compositions are diverse in style and texture..... Incredible!
I have yet to hear his latest ECM disk.. But it's on the list
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Olivier louvelle .. nice vid..Hendrix influenced..did we forget some of his harmonic innovations..he certainly pushed the boundaries a bit
the mention of symmetric exploration by some of the classical masters bring into focus john Coltrans ventures and iconic piece 'giant steps" using tri-tonic (augmented theory) applications in his later work..
john Scofield using diminished lines to alter his harmonic progressions - again symmetric harmony..
And some of the players who just "invented" harmonic movement as they played Steve Vie and eric Johnson.. they are way beyond Monder (and I like Ben) in finding harmonic avenues less traveled..may not be considered jazz players but influenced some players a lot..
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Jake,
"Cutting edge"
I'm not smart enough to know what lies on the periphery of human progress in music but
between living in NYC and the internet, thanks to the creative efforts of a multitude of artists,
I am rarely at a loss to access music that expands my perception of sonic possibilities.
Last night I came home too overstuffed to practice and so I did a bunch of listening.
The Marks Brothers - a duo CD with bassists Mark Dresser and Mark Helias.
Cool sonority, some through composed moments, lots of improv, great bass playing.
Dual Identity - collaboration between Rudresh Mahanthappa and Steve Lehman.
Two strong composers finding a middle ground along with Liberty Ellman, Matt Brewer, Damion Reid
Point Of Departure - Andrew Hill with Eric Dolphy, Tony Williams, Richard Davis, Joe Henderson, Kenny Dorham
Revisiting an album from my youth.
and read a few Henry Threadgill interviews.
No particular insight into his harmonic practices, much insight into his strong individualism.
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The exploration of symmetry going on now is actually a different approach from Coltrane (though not too far). Coltrane's exploration of symmetry came from an arrangement of melodic ideas that came out of symmetry (of course, we all know the Slonimsky book). Coltrane's approach was to make it "tonal", hence all the dominant-tonic resolutions. The current exploration of symmetry is more based on post second Viennese school approaches. Lots of people are getting into the whole post-tonal thing. The challenge of it is the fact that serialist music has so much going on, for example, if playing a 12 tone row, having to keep track of all notes, which ones you played, and which you haven't. But a lot of guys have gotten into the theoretical breaking down of rows, such as O'Gallagher's approach of using trichords as opposed to full 12 tone rows, to get close to the sound, but keeping it manageable for free improvisation. He has a book out on the subject which is an interesting read for anyone that wants to check it out (and it comes with a CD with a fantastic rhythm section). Originally Posted by wolflen
Yeah, Henry hasn't really spoken about his ideas, especially online. But if you catch him after a show or something, he's always happy to talk about it. I've had the chance to hang out with him a bunch just by working at the venue I am at. and he's always open to answering questions after the gig. Originally Posted by bako
I just looked over my music library and have some more recommendations if you want to check out some interesting composers/harmonists (if that word can be used, haha).
David Virelles - Probably the baddest young pianist in NYC right now, and by far my favorite. Cuban guy that is heavily influenced by the folklore. I have no idea what he does, but he studied for a long time with Threadgill, so his approach is sort of similar, though very different sounding.
Tyshawn Sorey - Incredible drummer. Also a trombonist and pianist (and incredible composer). Can occasionally be heard on some "straight ahead"/"modern" stuff. Lage Lund likes to hire him. But his approach to composition is also incredible. Really into Morton Feldman, amongst others. He has some great records, but he's really been working out his new-ish piano trio (which just finished their first run at the Vanguard) with bassist Chris Tordini and a really interesting pianist, Cory Smythe, who's record Pluripotent you should also check out. Check out the record Alloy.
Steve Lehman - Definitely into some cool harmonic stuff, using a sort of recent theory in the classical world called spectral harmony. His website has his Columbia doctoral dissertation on spectral harmony and using it in improvisation.
Ingrid Laubrock - Great tenor player, influenced by heavily by Braxton. Speaking of the symmetry and 12-tone thing I spoke of above, she is one that has gotten into that. A lot of her written out things come from building and breaking down tone rows.
Toning things down a bit, John Stowell is also great. He can be seen in a similar light as Ben Monder, by playing these really guitaristically uncomfortable voicings that just sound great.
Checking out classical stuff might also broaden your harmonic foundation. Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, CPE Bach for some strict contrapuntal and tonal stuff (of course the later you go towards Mozart, the more it's getting stretched). Beethoven getting into romanticism and stretching harmony. Brahms (his lieders and solo piano music, especially the intermezzos) is definitely my favorite to check out, heavily stretching the boundaries of tonality. Debussy obviously already departed from tonality. And then serialists such as Schoenberg, Webern, Stravinsky, Babbit, Boulez, etc. Also non-serialist "atonal" composers such as Bartok (also one of my favorites).
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I went through a big 20th century and contemporary classical listening phase when I was younger. I tend not to listen so much to that stuff now but it definitely had an effect on how I listen to music. I also sang a fair amount of 20th century/contemporary repertoire in choirs.
I think it's very common for classical I remember going to gig of a friend, jazz fusion and contemporary virtuoso Dave Preston. He'd been to a choral gig I'd sung in - Tallis, Durufle, and there was also a performance of a section Messaien's Quartet for the End of Time from piano and cello. He quoted some of the piece in a solo, and asked if I had noticed, and i have to say I had no idea. Entirely lost on me... Dave P is a monster, BTW.
BTW Messiaen is a popular one with jazz musicians as he is a heavy user of symmetrical scales, and does write what we could call harmony...
Bear in mind that harmonically jazz lags behind classical by several decades. Most of jazz harmony is borrowed second hand. The 12-tone improvisation thing is just becoming mainstream, but most composers abandoned this system in favour of tonality, modality or more complicated systems of composition quite a few decades back. In classical circles saying you are a 12-tone composer is a bit like saying you've just discovered this fantastic new music called rebop ;-)
That said I think the 12 tone system could be very interesting for improvisors. I like the organisation of stuff intervalically, I think that could be really natural on the guitar. Anyway I have John O'Gallagher's book and from a initial look, it looks pretty cool.
Speaking of Ingrid Laubrock, I remember being impressed by Liam Noble's playing. He is somewhat influenced by Conlon Nancarrow. The two of them did a nice album to together....
To talk about harmony in this context seems a bit daft. It's not really about that. More about organising material in compositions rather than chords. In fact if anything, the trend in contemporary music has been to get simpler harmonically. Largely this is under the influence of modal jazz (no really) via Steve Reich and early pre-classical music via Arvo Part. These guys are now elder statesmen, and most of the young composers I hear seem to be composing in a consonant or sort of 'atonal'-but-melodic post Britten kind of style. There's not too much genuinely new that I hear. I would love to be corrected....
These days, I am less interested in all this stuff - I'm more drawn to the rhythmic and groove elements in jazz ATM and I'd rather listen to drummers than pianists. That said, I think it's great to listen to modern classical stuff. There's some great music and it really opened up my ears.
Anyway, here are some things I like
Inevitably
and
And also, what Arvo Part can do with a descending scale is extraordinary. It so much better than anything Britten ever wrote haha.
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Totally agree with the 12 tone thing. I have a friend who really got into composing with it, and it's almost obnoxious how much he talks about it. It's nothing new... haha.
The impressive part to me, are guys like John (Tim Berne is also into this), who can freely improvise with the material, especially in situations where you're sticking to the ordered property of the row.
If you haven't checked out Tyshawn yet, I think you'd really like him. I wouldn't dare call his music jazz, despite him being known to the public as a jazz drummer. It's really in the classical vein closely following Feldman, but with a lot of use of improvisation.
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Guys! This is really great, thanks so much. I'm going to have to give myself an itunes/youtube day possibly over christmas break to dig in to these listening suggestions. Please, keep em coming.
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+1
Great food for listening so far.
Going back from 2015 as well (to 1992, in this case and further back to the 1960s "Harmolodics" concept of Ornette Coleman's) - but back to guitarists, I can strongly recommend James Blood Ulmer's "Harmolodic Guitar with Strings" (I don't know how well the known it is here): An album of utmost harmonic beauty, to me.
The sound of the YouTube video is lacking though:
Thom Jurek's review on Allmusic gives some insight on Ulmer's harmonic approach. (Noteworthy too is Ulmer's technical approach to tune all strings to E.):
http://www.allmusic.com/album/harmol...s-mw0000042138
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Bwahahahahahah! MOOOOARRRRR YOOUTUBEZZZZ
Inspiration from the distant past - styles, norms and practices long dead can sound arrestingly modern...
Check out this stuff - it's the 14th century avant garde!
16th century polyphony went through a decidedly chromatic avant garde phase as well....
The crunchy cadences of Guillaume de Machaut are a favourite of mine:
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someday during christmas break I'll sit down and listen to all of these
so please don't stop rockin (or believing)
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