Time/feel practice ideas

[JensL]

Django raises an interesting issue though. He is not what I would think of as a swinging guitar player in the cc sense, but you wouldn't say he has poor time. Have you checked out Oscar Aleman, Jens? I think it makes for an interesting contrast.

Swing feel varies a lot from style to style. Pat Martino swings by not swinging a lot of the time. Brazilian and Latin music has it's own feel too, which isn't mechanical but also not what I'd call swing.

I have never really listened a lot to Gypsy stuff, somehow it didn't appeal to much to me, probably the lack of interaction? I'll give Oscar Aleman a listen

Jens

[christianm77]

Swing feel varies a lot from style to style. Pat Martino swings by not swinging a lot of the time. Brazilian and Latin music has it's own feel too, which isn't mechanical but also not what I'd call swing.

I have never really listened a lot to Gypsy stuff, somehow it didn't appeal to much to me, probably the lack of interaction? I'll give Oscar Aleman a listen

Jens

Gypsy jazz didn't exist in the 30s. There were only jazz guitar players. Possible even the jazz term is misleading as they were playing popular music - swing for sure, but also tangos, boleros, bal musette, later samba & choro, whatever was trendy.... And the player brought their traditions with them. Blues for black Americans, but different elsewhere. Django brought gypsy traditional and French popular music influences into the mix.

Oscar Aleman was from Argentina via Brazil. Like Django he was an single string acoustic guitar soloist working in string bands and playing jazz and swing. He often depped for Django when he decided he'd rather go fishing.

gypsy jazz is a recent development. Tbh I despise the term, it's like 'salsa' - a marketing term...

also - pat martino really swings. His earlier playing I have always enjoyed, his recent post-relearning playing much harder to get into, but very rewarding.

[christianm77]

Btw jens you post reminded me that Charlie c was held to have the best time of any jazz musician by Lennie Tristano FWIW... I can't say I disagree though it's a big statement.

Tristano guys are big on metronome practice at slow tempos and meter practice of rhythmic displacements over pulse, if I understand correctly. It's quite a specific concept of time. The ideal here is metronomic time.

[christianm77]

"Syncopate the silence."

1. Sing/say the lyrics repeatedly while a clapping/tapping out a steady rhythm, but remove random words/phrases while maintaining the rhythm. (Kids enjoy a variant of that with "Head and shoulders, knees and clap/tap")

2. Same - but instead of clapping/tapping, use some kind of external reference for rhythm.

3. Same - but this time play/produce sound to fill the spaces.

i like this advice - very humanistic!

syncopate the silence reminds of the way artists sometimes paint using negative space. In terms of a jazz a good example is learning how to play swing quarter notes - it's judging the length of the notes so that you swing the ends of them - so you are in effect playing a swung eighth followed by a swung eighth note rest.

essential skill for playing hot tempos, as well as being able to comp straight fours. Louis is obviously the clearest example, but I also hear it in miles, Jim hall and grant green among many others.

[JensL]

gypsy jazz is a recent development. Tbh I despise the term, it's like 'salsa' - a marketing term...

Sure, what term would you prefer?

also - pat martino really swings. His earlier playing I have always enjoyed, his recent post-relearning playing much harder to get into, but very rewarding.

I think you understood it like that but just in case. My point is that Pat Martino's 8th notes are very even, so in that respect he often doesn't really swing, but the music he plays still swing. I really listened a lot to El Hombre and Desperado when I started playing jazz.

Jens

[GuitarGerry]

I've spent some time learning to play drum beats (like a second line beat) with my hands and feet, mimicking the different parts of kit drumming.

I've also spent time playing various 12/8 patterns with my hands, like you'd do for hand drumming, though I just use a desk/my leg, etc. Learning to play the "long" and "short" "bell patterns" is pretty fun and interesting, though I'm still not sure what, if any, effect this has had on my guitar playing.

Your post came to mind last night while I was listening to Jimmy Smith. The sonic mix of many B3 trios is such that the drummer's ride cymbal is usually very easy to hear. I was thinking about how you would explain the concept of Swing to a novice and perhaps an exercise could be devised using 'active' listening.

The drummers in those 60s B3 ensembles usually kept to a rigid ride pattern going: ting, ting-ka, ting etc. Unrelenting in some cases. By listening out for, and locking into, that pattern, then tapping along with your picking hand, trying to synchronize with it, you're pretty much going to cover all the variations of Swing feel (at least in the slow-to-medium tempo range). It's a way of training the mind/body to subtly adjust amounts of Swing over different tempos. Obviously it's not going to be much use with respect to developing syncopation, but as a means of developing a feel for basic Swing it might be valid.

[Irez87]

Sometimes to play the best music, you gotta play it away from the instrument first...

You dig?

More to music than finger flapping

Even P Martino, his lines would sound good sung or on a toy piano.

The music has to stand alone, regardless of the instrument.

I love guitaristic mannerisms, but those mannerisms would sound good on other instruments as well (just better on the guitar, RESPECT )

[GuitarGerry]

I love guitaristic mannerisms, but those mannerisms would sound good on other instruments as well (just better on the guitar, RESPECT )

When I first started to take keys seriously I worked out a lot of B3 licks by my favourite players. Naively, I thought that piano players would have their own thing, totally exclusive to their instrument. The reality is that many of the voicings they use are identical to 'ours', and visa versa. Likewise with a lot of their blues licks. Obviously the techniques of both instruments mean that some things don't translate (bends), or require a compromise, but I was almost disappointed to discover that a lot of the licks I was working out from the B3 guys were just the same as those I play on the guitar!

Obviously a lot of cross-pollination went on over decades...

[Irez87]

Here is an example of me using a bell pattern with a creative use of harmonics and percussion on my guitar... It almost worked

there are two guitars on this, me and my friend. My guitar sounds a little dark:

Like I said, the music has to come from within. You can learn from any instrument, as long as that musician that you are copying is a true musician, know what I mean?

[christianm77]

Sure, what term would you prefer?


I think you understood it like that but just in case. My point is that Pat Martino's 8th notes are very even, so in that respect he often doesn't really swing, but the music he plays still swing. I really listened a lot to El Hombre and Desperado when I started playing jazz.

Jens

I prefer Music, but that's not great for getting gigs. That said it's working surprisingly well with one project in doing:-)

Anyway to define django as gypsy jazz, well he was a gypsy who played jazz, so ok. I find it a limiting description of a musician of such vaulting talent and wide scope. But there was plenty of string band swing played by people with no gypsy heritage...

Angelo debarre? Yes gypsy jazz. Samois etc.

Rant mode disengage

Re: swing feel, contrary to the textbook definitions of swing, you need to keep your eighths pretty even from the point of view of playing them. Your dot should emerge naturally but it depends from player to player. Placement is important too.

Lately of what I've been doing feel wise is playing straighter and more even.

That said Tripletty swing can be great too ... The problem is when you get that jerky dotted thing which is what happens when you try to swing...

[christianm77]

I feel I should point out that you can play strings of eighths perfectly in time and not swing at all.

Swing to me is an intuitive and experiential understanding of the polymetric nature of jazz time. Even a line in pure eighths must have something of that polymetric feeling. That's a hard thing to quantify, although you can see it in the top notes of a bebop line for example, or the way we use triplets in older styles of jazz such as swing and bop to pull and push against the duple pulse.

In particular the quarter note and half note triplets seem to be key as well as feeling the difference between true double time and sixteenth notes...

[JensL]

I feel I should point out that you can play strings of eighths perfectly in time and not swing at all.

Swing to me is an intuitive and experiential understanding of the polymetric nature of jazz time. Even a line in pure eighths must have something of that polymetric feeling. That's a hard thing to quantify, although you can see it in the top notes of a bebop line for example, or the way we use triplets in older styles of jazz such as swing and bop to pull and push against the duple pulse.

In particular the quarter note and half note triplets seem to be key as well as feeling the difference between true double time and sixteenth notes...

I've had swing described as fictionele between Rhythmical layers. I think It's a good description since it doesn't try to put any ratios etc in it.

Did you ever notice that horn players and guitarists use even 8ths more often than drummers and piano players?

Jens

[GuitarGerry]

I feel I should point out that you can play strings of eighths perfectly in time and not swing at all.

Swing to me is an intuitive and experiential understanding of the polymetric nature of jazz time. Even a line in pure eighths must have something of that polymetric feeling. That's a hard thing to quantify, although you can see it in the top notes of a bebop line for example, or the way we use triplets in older styles of jazz such as swing and bop to pull and push against the duple pulse.

In particular the quarter note and half note triplets seem to be key as well as feeling the difference between true double time and sixteenth notes...

I agree, drummers have long discussions about all this stuff. Swing can be a very individual thing. Mel Lewis talked about it a length, describing the different feels that famous drummers used. One tempo, one ride pattern, but clearly different voices. Same with all musicians really, the instrument doesn't matter. Part intuition, part understanding, part personality: there are clearly different swing feels over the same tempo range, and what we're attracted to very much depends upon who we are.

The Bop guys took tempos so high that their music couldn't always swing. Perhaps that's why I never really liked the firebrands of Bop. Bit like Punk: the upstarts were a little too much for me at the time, but I loved New Wave. Similarly I like post-Bop artists more that the originators of the music...with the exception of Monk (and one or two others).

[GuitarGerry]

Did you ever notice that horn players and guitarists use even 8ths more often than drummers and piano players?

That might be to do with virtuosity/the 'need' to be flash. Difficult to swing at fast tempos, or when playing fast flourishes. It's not only awkward, but it can even sound comical. Also, in the case of guitarists, alternate picking can make some guitarists sound a little wooden. To me, up-down seems a very even thing, rhythmically (I'm on shaky ground here, because I'm not a plectrum player). I think some sort of circular motion in the right hand/index and thumb would certainly help..but I'm out of my depth on this subject.

[christianm77]

I've had swing described as fictionele between Rhythmical layers. I think It's a good description since it doesn't try to put any ratios etc in it.

Did you ever notice that horn players and guitarists use even 8ths more often than drummers and piano players?

Jens

Yes and yes!

Piano players like their triplets.... if drummers use a skip note it is likely to be pretty Tripletty.

That said older guitar players used more triplet embellishments.

[RyanM]

I play transcriptions along with the recording, focusing on nailing the rhythm: the timing, articulation, phrasing, the "shape" of the notes. Or at least as close as possible; if it's a different instrument it can be difficult to get it exact. If I can get it really locked in it should be a good way to develop swing feel.

[christianm77]

I play transcriptions along with the recording, focusing on nailing the rhythm: the timing, articulation, phrasing, the "shape" of the notes. Or at least as close as possible; if it's a different instrument it can be difficult to get it exact. If I can get it really locked in it should be a good way to develop swing feel.

Time honoured approach. I have heard players up their game rhythmically by doing this a lot.

That said a lot of great older generation jazzers were rather dismissive of players who had learned from records. Dizzy apparently compared it masturbation.

At some point you are going to have to get out and play with the real thing. I try to listen closely to rhythm section players and book sessions and gigs with the ones I think are the best, or at least better than me.

But I still think you need a bit of a concept - you need to be able to express and hear the difference between quite similar rhythms - a common mistake even among some trained and capable musicians is mistranscribing three quarter note triplets as swung eight, quarter, eighth. Even the occasional mistake of the nature reveals that these rhythms are not completely understood as two totally different things.

Notes on second triplet of the beat are often transcribed as 'lay back' or 'lazy' which is useless unless the convention - the exact amount of 'behnd the beat' is understood (usually intuitively by experienced players.)

Again the notation - 'swung eights' whatever the hell that is supposed to mean - is limited. Somethings are harder to write down so they are simplified or glossed over. They could be written down, but the notation would look fussy. (Skilled jazz sight readers become adept at seeing beyond the score and reconstructing what was actually meant, of course.)

Gunther Schuller points out that western musicians have trouble with playing half note triplet against dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter which is standard for west African music (not that they think of it this way.)

Getting into Mike Longo made me realise this distinction is also important in jazz.

The more rhythms you can identify intuitively the better you can understand phrasing. This might not necessarily mean having to understand them mathematically or notationally... In fact intuitive is no doubt better,

Drummers know this stuff, and Bellson has some great notational examples of the key swing rhythms. Highly recommended by me and many others!

[matt.guitarteacher]

But I still think you need a bit of a concept - you need to be able to express and hear the difference between quite similar rhythms - a common mistake even among some trained and capable musicians is mistranscribing three quarter note triplets as swung eight, quarter, eighth. Even the occasional mistake of the nature reveals that these rhythms are not completely understood as two totally different things.

Notes on second triplet of the beat are often transcribed as 'lay back' or 'lazy' which is useless unless the convention - the exact amount of 'behnd the beat' is understood (usually intuitively by experienced players.)

Again the notation - 'swung eights' whatever the hell that is supposed to mean - is limited. Somethings are harder to write down so they are simplified or glossed over. They could be written down, but the notation would look fussy.

Good post. This is my pet peeve as well. What you're saying above about transcription goes for most of the professionally published transcription books as well. I picked up a Wes Montgomery book many months ago. I started looking at something while listening to the recording referenced, and just had to laugh.

After being told repeatedly, on these very forums, that you can't get the real thing from a book like that , I realized it's absolutely true. Most of the rhythms are "simplified" into eighth notes. I can somewhat understand having to sell books which are readable I guess.

Anyway, once you learn to hear all the subdivisions of eighth note triplets, it's amazing how much the modern listener and even musician can't really hear them. Watching old movies, I'm struck by how some of the cheesy old entertainers (who weren't even "real" singers) can phrase so easily over a triplet base, in a way that even many "jazz" players (at least guitarist players) can't now. It used to be the common denominator for all of popular music, and people could hear it even if they weren't real musicians.

Honestly, I think learning to really hear all of the triplet subdivisions is just the beginning.

[christianm77]

Good post. This is my pet peeve as well. What you're saying above about transcription goes for most of the professionally published transcription books as well. I picked up a Wes Montgomery book many months ago. I started looking at something while listening to the recording referenced, and just had to laugh.

After being told repeatedly, on these very forums, that you can't get the real thing from a book like that , I realized it's absolutely true. Most of the rhythms are "simplified" into eighth notes. I can somewhat understand having to sell books which are readable I guess.

Anyway, once you learn to hear all the subdivisions of eighth note triplets, it's amazing how much the modern listener and even musician can't really hear them. Watching old movies, I'm struck by how some of the cheesy old entertainers (who weren't even "real" singers) can phrase so easily over a triplet base, in a way that even many "jazz" players (at least guitarist players) can't now. It used to be the common denominator for all of popular music, and people could hear it even if they weren't real musicians.

Honestly, I think learning to really hear all of the triplet subdivisions is just the beginning.

Yay, synchronise rants! Agree with your comments.

This is/was such a prevalent rhythm. Even the Beatles use it to death.

Once you start hearing them, you hear them everywhere.

[christianm77]

I liked this