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Its the same thing, I can play blues while talking or doing anything basically , I don[t have to think at all...Thats where I want to get with Richie Zellons stuff, get it completely ingrained and muscle memory!!!
Ken
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11-21-2015 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
There is so much that can be done with that simple looking set of numbers. Apply approach notes, pivots, octave displacement, and don't just use apreggios any pattern of four notes. Then start adding some rhythmic patterns. In manys this is what horn player do all the time, they can take a pattern and turn it into a days practice. I was just eating dinner and was thinking about applying to II-V-I's and how could match the number combo based on the nearest chord tone and a pattern for that chord and chord tone. Just listen to Coltrane and the music he create out of the Nicolas Slonimsky book he wrote songs, created lines, discovered scales. This set of numbers isn't licks it germs of ideas to build with.
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Many thanks for the thread/thoughts and most of all the link
). I signed up at the Gold level. As a rank beginner having looked at the available material in module one - the videos add a lot of helpful content to the very detailed and useful .pdf's . The decending cycle of fifths discussion he gives is the first time I have seen this explained on a practical level that I instantly went aha!! got it!! I do think this is a more advanced beginner/intermediate player point of entry.
WillLast edited by WillMbCdn5; 11-22-2015 at 12:12 AM.
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H folks. I'm really into classical guitar these days, and haven't visited here for eight months or so. I dropped in yesterday and saw this thread. Well, I just signed up for the Gold account as well. I'll have to squeeze into my classical studies, but, hey, you only live once.
I've just had a look at the start of it, and got a little confused. He wants you to look at the two chord videos BEFORE you start the first module. From those two videos, I can imagine it will take some of us a long time to reach the first module. He asks us to first of all play seventh chords around the cycle of fifths in one area of the fretboard, and then in two other areas (four or five frets per area). And then work through ii/V/I sequences likewise. And video 2 brings in chord extensions on the same. All to be done in 12 keys around the cycle. All this before the first module? Really? My first impression is that you must be an intermediate player - this ain't no beginner's course, that's for sure. I'll manage, but can imagine some will really struggle to get beyond this introduction.
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I think he presents the introductory. Chord and theory lessons in the interest of thoroughness and being a competent musician. It is hardly the main thrust of the course. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
But the main trajectory of the course is how to create lines from I7-IV7- V7 with some m7 chord jazz subs. Ie, how to create lines over a jazz blues. In creating these lines, he asks you to follow his specific fingerings, which most of us have learned already if we have studied some aspects of the caged system. or, in my case, Chuck Wayne's scale fingerings. In this primary task, he is exceptionally thorough and approach is it from many interesting pedagogical angles.Last edited by NSJ; 11-22-2015 at 02:49 PM.
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The excellent Mike Walker does something very similar in the UK with his Practise2Play course. You study all aspects of scales ,modes and harmonies etc without the "shallow"quick fix methods espoused by some "no theory needed"exponents.
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Hey, Rob! You've been missed. I look forward to hearing how you progress here (and hope you make some videos, and you have done while working through Mickey Baker and George Van Eps books). I'm still on the fence about this---if I do it, I'll wait until the first of the year. I will say that my inclination is increasing rather than decreasing... Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Rob, I'm right there with you on this. I decided to check out the 2 chord lessons and realized that I have much work to do in that department and have actually spent MOST of my practice time so far working on it. But I DID also jump into Module 1 and have found that none of the remaining lessons in Module 1 depend upon having mastered these two chord videos. By now, I have worked through module 1 entirely but my first month isn't finished yet, so Module 2 isn't yet available to me, which is actually a good thing, so I'm circling back to keep working on the chord lessons until Module 2 opens up. After that, from what I understand, I'll be off to the races. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Great to see you back again. Just a week or two ago I was on youtube watching the Van Eps Harmonic Mechanisms videos you so kindly made.
Play on!
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Thanks for the welcome back, guys. I'll always love jazz, no matter what else I get up to. My father was a saxophonist, and I grew up listening to Lester Young, his favourite.
Jasaco - just what I wanted to hear. Thanks for that. I'll plough on!
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Just as an aside, I'm taking some music classes at my local junior-community college. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Next semester, I think that I'll sign up to take private instruction with the classical teacher.
I have a good handle on how to keep progressing in jazz (playing with people, learn tunes) , but it would be nice to get some classical and Spanish pieces together, as well as to improve my right hand technique and sense of expression, as well as improving my reading skills.
I was very impressed that the classical guitar teacher was able to being in Gene Bertocinni and Roddy Elias to the school foe a performance and master class.
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Wel, I got to play and work on some Bb blues today with a friend of mine who is a retired musician. I really appreciate his point of view: he was a flamenco guitarist (played with Paco de Lucia at Albert Hall), but first learned to play jazz on the saxophone in the 1950s, studying with people like Art Pepper and Harold Land. In the 1980s, he came to Chicago and wound up playing both flamenco and jazz with various AACM musicians. So he has one foot in straightahead, one in the avant-garde. He feels very strongly that what differentiates the American avant-guarde from their European counterparts is the ability to play blues and to play jazz that is steeped in the blues.
The interesting thing is that he does not relate to jazz as a guitarist but rather as a saxophone player. One of his former students on flamenco Guitar leads the most popular gypsy jazz group in town -- while the backing guitarists play gypsy guitars, the leader actually plays gypsy jazz on a flamenco guitar. Hey taught him how to play flamenco guitar, but the guy plays flamenco guitar in the gypsy jazz Group he leads that's named after a pack of French cigarettes
Some things I learned today:
---The form (12 bars of changes) is there only to make sure you don't get lost and know where you are. Music is not an academic exercise and the goal is not to make the changes like it's a chess match or a puzzle. The goal, as Art pepper told him, is to play melodically ( Pepper told him that when he played for Benny Carter's group, he had no knowledge about how to play changes, he just tried to play melodically ), relaxed and not fretting about the fact that the chord tone is on the strong beat or a weak beat.
--one should always have a series of clichés (eg, b3-M3-P5-M6-P8) internalized that serve as an automatic backup for those occasions where perhaps something new cannot be played but something of musical interest (i.e., basic vocabulary ) should be used to fill up the space until such time as something totally new can be created. Or as connectors to new and fresh ideas. It is an honorable thing to have many internalized many clichés that one can use in one's lines or vocabulary. All the great players have them . These clichés should be internalized intervallically and played in all keys. Although he did say, if you really want to study a player that minimized his clichés, study Zoot Sims, not Stan Getz.
--the stock or basic changes he gave me are I | IV7 | I | I7 | IV7 | IV7 | I-iim7 | iiim7-biiim7 | iim7 | V7 | V7 (bII7) | I
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Europeans and blues - I've played blues solos by Europeans from the 1910s. I love to hear Django play the blues. And I don't really need to mention a certain Mr Clapton, do I? Europeans have been playing the blues as long as white Americans. But, there are other influences too, and maybe the difference lies with them. But I imagine this topic should have a thread of its own, and probably has had. I don't wish to detract from the subject of this thread.
Bars 7 and 8 are a bit odd there, Navdeep. Not the bII7, which is just a tritone sub. Have you written the last two bars the wrong way round? Bar 11 should be bar 12, and vice versa? Not that a European would ever dream of correcting an American when it comes to the Blues
I've always liked that climb up through the m7 chords, but I like the I chord at the start of bar 7 to be a Maj7.
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Any chance of a Thanksgiving Day sale on Richie's stuff? Seems most people offer a holiday sale....
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I have know idea but for the amount info it's cheap by any measure..I think the level with all the videos is $99.00 for an entire year Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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What are "fingering cycles"? I see this listed as something covered in Module #1 ("How to use the Fingering Cycles")
I'm thinking more and more about getting this. I like the David Baker material I am working with---and I appreciate teh lack of tab, as it forces me to read everything and that sharpens my reading and it also makes me think in terms of note names rather than fret numbers---but I see the value of something based on the guitar....
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Richie uses the 7 Hepatonic fingering system, I'm sure yo know the, already. He also uses something called Intervallic Script which means think in note degrees as opposed to A, Bb,...etc.... It makes it much easier to move different lines around the neck.
Ken
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Thanks, Ken, but I still don't know what "fingering cycles"' means. I learned Jimmy Bruno's "five fingerings", for example, and know them backwards and forwards so I know what "fingerings" mean but not "fingering cycles". (This isn't a complaint; it's a term I hadn't heard before and I'm unsure what it means.) When I hear "cycle" I think C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, and G. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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I also used to use Jimmy Bruno's 5 position playing when I was a member a long time ago...Believe me you know these 7 fingerings if you play guitar....Its root from 6 string string with 1st, the 2nd, then pinky..same for root on 5th string..then the 7th fingering starts on 4th string 1st finger...thats it
Ken
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Doesn't the guy officially or unofficially have an email address to send questions to, I'd be asking him. I send email to teachers, people I hear on CD, or watch on the internet. Most will answer and like to know people are listening to them.
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He's probably referring to cycle of 5ths as well as moving up the neck and how the fingering work in a cycle.
But yes you should email him...but anyway its nothing you haven't seen.
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Yeah, I'm not worried about the fingerings. I was just curious about the phrase "fingering cycles"----that was a new one on me.
Re: docbop's suggestion, I couldn't find an email address for Richie at the site for his bebop course, but I did find a 'contact' box on his main site, so I sent him an email asking about this. (It's not a deal breaker by any means, just a curious phrase.)
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Hadn't thought of it before, but I just now found Richie's "Volume 1" at Amazon (22 bucks, paperback.) If I get this, I'll get it directly from Richie, but this link is interesting (-especially for those on the fence about this) because you can "look inside" and see the table of contents.
http://www.amazon.com/Bebop-Guitar-I...=richie+zellon
On second thought, if you get this as an e-book and then print out the PDFs, that would probably burn through a printer cartridge----it might be cheaper to buy the paperback because you don't have the expense of printing.... Just thinking out loud here. (Of course, if you just buy the books, you DON'T get access to the videos, mp3 files and BIAB files. So there, I talked myself right back out of it...)Last edited by MarkRhodes; 11-27-2015 at 10:13 PM.
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The gold level is only $90.00 for access to the videos and forums for 12 months..thats cheap!!! That's $7.50 a month..lol
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Mark, he teaches the fingerings while outlining the cycle of 4th/5ths. He seems keen you develop a sense of scale relationships within the context of moving chords, and as we know, in jazz, chords very often move around the cycle. So, you will be learning how to go around I IV VII III VI II V I in one position, then do it in six other positions.
NB We are talking about scales, but he simultaneously teaches the arpeggios for the same scales/positions. In Module I, you are focussed on the mixolydian mode or scale, and its related V7 arpeggio. He makes the point that the arpeggios are arguably more important for BeBop than the scales, though you must know both equally.
So, it's not just seven scale/arpeggio fingerings, but how they are viewed and expressed within a context of standard chord movement.
He also encourages you to improvise a three-chord Blues using three scale/arpeggio fingerings, and be able to do that in any of the positions.
I felt myself in danger of saying, "Well, I know the mixolydian scale and V7 arpeggio already, so I'll ask him if I can move on to Module II" [each module only opens up after one month - you can't look ahead, although he does say advanced players can request to get the whole lot in one go). But I have desisted. Too often I get a book and just skim through the pages I think I know, but the discipline of doing the finger drills, or woodshedding, tends to get skimmed over as well. So, I'm determined not to skip ahead this time.
My understanding is that things get a lot more difficult in Module II. There are 9 modules in all, and he refers to these as Part 1. Part 2 has not been written yet.
To be honest, I find his videos unnecessarily long-winded. I keep finding myself thinking, "Get to the point!". Maybe it's just that at this module level I already know what he's talking about. I'm sure that will change.
So, it's a year-long course for £40, which is a steal. But I think you will need to surrender yourself to the discipline of it's structure to get the most out of it.
I hope that helps.
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