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The best student is always her own teacher, that is to say, after a certain point of development in the beginning with a proper teacher who goes over the basics and best practices and the technical mechanics of the instrument and technique, such that the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented, learns to ask the pertinent, questions and finds out her own answers, has developed an overall framework towards the instrument and the music, and thus does not approach things in a random, haphazard, scatterbrained way, throwing shit against the wall, hoping something will stick.
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07-12-2016 04:26 PM
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i think its often not so much the audacity of the teacher as the anxiety of the student that's doing the work
you can easily lack faith in your own ability to get the relevant learning done (often to identify what has to be learned in the first place etc.) - and if you're in that state you're very keen to believe that there might be a solution to the problem of how to learn. you're even keener to believe its the sort of solution you can just... buy.
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who tells you that the problem with learning how to play jazz well is that if you do it you're very unlikely to do anything else (well or otherwise...)? and what good would it do if there were someone - you would just want to know how well they played...
those 10.000 or 20.000 hours have to be fitted in there somehow....
that's the problem
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I think all a teacher can do is inspire curiosity. It's absolutely up to the student to find their own way.
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Nicely put.
Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I would caution that making one's own path is easy---just walk into the wild and the path will be your wake. It's more of an artifact than an achievement. As Seinfeld said, "Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a good reason." Conversely, a well-traveled road may be the best route from where you are to where you're headed.
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Still working with Richie's material. Lately my approach is as a very bad student dipping in where I can relate quickly , that said I am learning an awful lot. I have taken on board his scale/mode/arpeggio framework ( fingerings) which I find accessible and easy to play with and understand after some initial hard work. I have recently been mostly working through his neighbor/approach/enclosure etc studies and have been honing in on what sounds I like and don't like or maybe better said which tonal combinations I gravitate toward right now .
I am very much a casual and very undisciplined player and student but someone with a deep passion for the music and someone who takes great enjoyment out of playing a few lines from a tune I love in a recognizable fashion. Friends some of whom are pro musicians tell me I have evolved dramatically of late . If that is true I would suggest Richie's material has a lot to do with that.
Will
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I agree with a lot of what has been said on this page. I have been a pretty vocal supporter of Richie's method, but I've also tried to point out that this is only one facet of how I study jazz guitar. I don't think you'll play jazz convincingly if Richie's course is your sole focus. I've been moving through it very slowly because I have continued with transcribing, playing with records, learning tunes, etc. Every time I sit down at the guitar, though, something that I have learned from Richie helps to clarify what I am hearing and playing, and for that I am grateful. For example, I find myself distilling transcriptions through Richie's fingerings and that has helped me to quickly understand what intervals I am playing, or what embellishments I am hearing while I transcribe. It also fuels my imagination...what if I apply Richie's fingerings to, say, a scale that isn't covered in Module 2, or trying to apply what I've learned about voice leading in a simple blues to more complicated progressions. One of the tunes in my repertoire is Groove Yard. There is a section of dominants descending by fifths, two chords to a measure:
| Abm / Db7 / | Gb7 / B7 / | E7#11 / Fdim7 / |
I used to stumble through this blindly, but now I am starting to voice lead through the changes using the fingerings and embellishments from Modules 1-3 in a rudimentary way and it sounds a lot better than it used to!
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I like your quote about being undisciplined. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
My main problem is that I have a passion for so many different genres of music. I am not dedicated to one thing, but am dedicated to several mistresses.
My latest detour has been learning a couple of Boston songs (More Than a Feeling and Don't Look Back) that I was very, very passionate about in my youth and were some of the songs that drew me to the guitar. Hal leonard has a nice backing track and I have a nice guitar /amp set up. When the family is gone I plug in and am in heaven, at least for a little while.
Anyway, Richies's course is helping me navigate and plan my improvisation a lot better. I am learning what guitar tone to land on that expresses the pitch I am going after.
Finally, I find the Jazz etudes uninspiring, and maybe there is no other way to demonstrate the concepts in a song without sounding repetitive and plain jane. There is something to be said for having a nice jazzy backing track with a Jazzy sounding etude.
Still, I press on.
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A few posts have mentioned an alternative course, referring to Reg. Could someone provide a link or more detail on that program?
I've been working through Richie's program, and I've found it's excellent. I studied jazz performance in my undergrad almost 20 years ago, and was looking for something to fill in some blanks I still have, so the finger-stretches some folks mentioned haven't been an issue.
Richie's detailed approach to chord tones, guide tones, and approach notes is thorough and methodical. I requested access to all modules at once, so have looked ahead and I'm struggling to see how anyone could be negative about this resource.
While I recognize it may not fit everyone, it's a truly impressive collection of knowledge and I'm thankful for it.
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Hey, Gregory, first of all, if it's working for you that's the most important thing really. Reg isn't a program, method etc. he's a member on the forum. He does have a different take on a lot of common methods etc. Originally Posted by GregoryL
What he has said in this thread and alluded to generally, over the years, is that we have to understand that the guitar is a harmonic instrument ,... maybe first and foremost a harmonic instrument. Therefore, you should question whether it's the best use of time, for a life-long endeavor such as jazz, to focus on melodic playing like a horn player. He sayd that you want an approach which is teaching you harmony, melody, licks , and voicings, all at once, from a common philosophical approach, because you have to learn to comp as well.
"Harmonic implications"of anything you play MELODICALLY are very important to him, in practice and philosophy. He thinks of harmony and melody as the same thing, And at certain levels, they most certainly are.
Burt Ligon or Richie Zellen approach more from the viewpoint of chromatically approaching target notes, less from the standpoint of what is "implied" by the chromaticism itself, and more from the standpoint of its being "its own thing".
I have stated from the beginning that I think Richie's material is excellent for what it is: a workshop on targeting chord tones etc. It's not a holistic process, necessarily, for learning to play ALL of jazz, but what is? If you understand that it's just a piece , it has a lot of value IMO, especially if you're new to targeting /enclosures etc.
I don't really want to speak for reg, but he hasn't been around much lately. Check out his thread "live at the speed of jazz" . He speaks in a very non-reductionist manner that is hard to follow at times, but I would be very cautious to disregard anything he says. It's just one viewpoint anyway, but it's unique one, and comes from many years experience, from back in the old days' simpler philosophies/approaches, while playing with the old guys, and into evolution of more modern concepts and approaches. https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/22914-regs-thread-live-speed-jazz.html
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Thanks, much appreciated.
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I have to tell you that while like some of you mentioned, I do not like a lot of the etudes/opus practice tunes, starting around module 7, they start sounding so much better. And by Module 9, they make a very convincing case that the course, and the many months put in are well worth it.
I am still trying to trudge through module 2.
I have had to face a very important fact about my guitar pursuits and that they are similar to my motorcycle pursuits in my youth.
1) Whenever I had a spare moment, I would pull the cover off and take it for a ride, only I pull my guitar out of its case.
2) I kept in very clean and cared for it well. I had a lot of fun but was sometimes too tired to ride it, just like I am often too tired to play my guitar.
3) I developed some pretty good skills and would sometimes push it hard at a local dragstrip. With the guitar, when I get really warmed up and rested, I can rip off some pretty nice stuff and things flow well.
4) Since I did not ride it all the time, I never really mastered it. For examples, to the day that I sold it, wheelies scared me all though if conditions were right, I could ride one pretty far. The same with the guitar - tough to reach certain goals unless I really stick with it.
5) Both can get very expensive.
6) Both can take a toll on your body.
7) Both can be so much darn fun.
The guitar is more available for me most of the time, and I plan to renew my subscription and keep pressing forward with this course until I can get to those "magic modules" where I can really start to feel the mastery that I seek. This is not going to be short ride!
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Module 2 really was a slog! I am just about ready to start the first etudes from Module 3 but I have been doing a lot of work with the "Candy Bars" licks from the end of Module 2 at the same time and they are opening a lot of doors for me. They seem simple enough taken one at a time, but the real work is in learning to effortlessly connect them with voice leading and rhythmic variation, then applying them to dominant chords and ii-Vs in tunes.
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Candy Bar licks? You've given me something to look forward to. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Yeah man don't skip them! I could spend months just working with them. There are several pages of lines, both ascending and descending, starting and ending on various chord tones. The lines are presented in eighths, but Richie also provides 6 rhythmic variations. Lots and lots of important work here. Most importantly perhaps, is getting a feel for anticipating the chord changes and being able to construct your own lines on the fly. Really important to do these as an exercise, but even more important to make sure to practice actually improvising with the concepts.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by wzpgsr; 08-06-2016 at 05:56 PM.
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I checked out his first Candy Bar video. (I like having access to these videos by the way. I can constantly review things as I forget them Originally Posted by wzpgsr
).
I agree with you whole-heartedly. This was what I was looking for in each module, some more "Jazzy sounding" lines, and the etudes just do not do it for me.
To be fair, etudes are still basically exercises, and I should not have expected much more from them. But now that I have the Candy Bars to break up the monotony of the etudes, and am much happier.
Did you notice that he said these Candy Bars are not available in his books?
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I've seen some discussion of the fingering system used with the Zellon course. I took my fingerboard "system" from the Ted Greene single note books. So, it would seem like CAGED, and also utilizes quite a few stretches. Can anyone familiar with Ted Greene's single note books comment on how much of an adjustment there would be in order for me to dig in to the Zellon course?
Last edited by milestones87; 09-21-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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So, is it caged-like (shifts) with some stretches for chromatic notes? Originally Posted by milestones87
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
My fingerboard knowledge is derived from the Ted Greene books. I never studied CAGED, but from what I have observed, it appears that the Greene books are basically CAGED with a couple more positions (I could be horribly incorrect with this observation). A lot of the Greene positions have stretches in them (diatonic). So maybe it's only parts of CAGED.
With that said, I was wondering how different the above described is from the Zellon material. Hopefully someone who has dug into both the Ted Greene material and the Zellon material can shed some light.Last edited by milestones87; 09-21-2016 at 12:34 PM.
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If you can stretch from fret 3 to fret 5, on the 6th string, using your ring finger and pinky, then I think you have got it covered. Like many others here, I normally use my middle finger and pinky for this stretch going back to when I first started that ol' classic blues shuffle rhythm in E minor.
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That looks pretty good but I think you should take a look at The Smoking Lineman, Big City Blues, and The sound Of Rio which are bebop DVD courses by Robert Conti. Be prepared to be impressed! Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Been looking into Zellon's course, and am wondering if any of the folks who signed up a year ago would care to mention how they think it's helped them.
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It's been slow, steady, and methodical. I am able to play through the basic blues changes without much effort now. The dryness of some of the exercises has forced me to experiment rhythmically, which can only help. I would recommend not focusing solely on this, but rather incorporating it into a practice schedule that also includes working on tunes, transcribing, etc.
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I should note that I've been registered for a year and work at it fairly diligently, and I am almost done with module 3. For folks who don't have a ton of practice time, and who will work on other aspects of their playing, I think 2-2.5 years is a more realistic goal for completing the course.
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I started Module 4 today. Do I get a t-shirt? I was pleased to find there were no new "bebop calisthenics" (structured exercises for practicing chord tone approaches and enclosures) in this module. Maybe I will finish this module in less than a month!
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