Found the best bebop online jazz improv course to date

**guitarplayer007** · 05-02-2016, 09:58 AM

It's funny how people see the same thing differently. I found this site and thought, wow it takes you from the basics of learning Bebop improv and gives yo a real understanding on how it's created. It has great exercises for learning these bebop moves. But I guess we all see can see things differently. I'm sure Kenny Burrell didn't have the internet to learn jazz

**teleman3726** · 05-02-2016, 10:07 AM

Ken
I got to the 3rd mod. It was fine but it really didn't enthuse me.
007. You're a scream. I was referring to the method of instruction, but I guess humor counts were it can be found.

**guitarplayer007** · 05-02-2016, 10:14 AM

Yes , so how are you going about learning?

**guitarplayer007** · 05-03-2016, 08:12 AM

I just love the fact that Richie teaches all different ways to approach the chord tones, enclosures, chromatic, single enclosure, double, 3 note chromatic and 3 note enclosure and more. Then has Etudes to show how to actually use them.
ken

**teleman3726** · 05-03-2016, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007

Yes , so how are you going about learning?

I've been playing for 30+ years. I transcribe solos or jam and gig with other jazz and blues dudes in my area.
I thought Richie's course would be interesting. It appeared so at the beginning. But it bored me to tears, frankly.
But others love it, so that's cool.

**guitarplayer007** · 05-03-2016, 08:24 AM

Many types of studies can be boring i suppose when you first get going because you need to start with a solid foundation and that's what Richie does. But of course it's not for everyone.
Ken

destinytot · 05-03-2016, 08:42 AM

I'm applying that old chestnut, 'Learn the rules, then break them'; I'm learning fingerings with four fingers - but (mostly) using three to play.

**AlsoRan** · 05-03-2016, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by teleman3726

I've been playing for 30+ years. I transcribe solos or jam and gig with other jazz and blues dudes in my area.
I thought Richie's course would be interesting. It appeared so at the beginning. But it bored me to tears, frankly.
But others love it, so that's cool.

For me, I am trying to construct an approach from the ground up, so to speak. I can see how someone with your many years of experience could put off by the elementary instruction the course gives.

I compare it to putting the training wheels back on your bike when you already have been riding one without them.

I need the training wheels, and to get back to the basics.

Good hearing input from a seasoned player. Thanks.

**goldenwave77** · 05-03-2016, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007

. I'm sure Kenny Burrell didn't have the internet to learn jazz

Burrell had a pretty good classical guitar background, I believe. He also attended Wayne State in Detroit which is very good today, and probably had a decent program at that time. Detroit was also a hotbed of musical talent---Barry Harris, the Jones Brothers, Pepper Adams, Donald Byrd, I believe, and others. He was hardly a self-taught, "naïve genius." He was known for his reading ability and in a 5 yr. period in NYC did over 1700 studio dates---so somewhere along the way he learned his stuff.

**NoReply** · 05-03-2016, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by goldenwave77

Burrell had a pretty good classical guitar background, I believe. He also attended Wayne State in Detroit which is very good today, and probably had a decent program at that time. Detroit was also a hotbed of musical talent---Barry Harris, the Jones Brothers, Pepper Adams, Donald Byrd, I believe, and others. He was hardly a self-taught, "naïve genius." He was known for his reading ability and in a 5 yr. period in NYC did over 1700 studio dates---so somewhere along the way he learned his stuff.

You can't look at Jazz education with 2016 eyes it was nothing like the last couple decades. Back in the 50's when it started it mainly a class not a program and typically was the students and teachers into Jazz getting together talking and jamming and comparing notes, it was still taught like learning it on the streets. Until the late 70's-early 80's most colleges you majored in traditional composition, performance, education classes and took Jazz classes as electives.

**joe2758** · 05-03-2016, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by teleman3726

But it bored me to tears, frankly.
.

as a fan of the course, I can still see what you mean. Richie's delivery is on the slow and dry side. it's the content that I enjoy, and the fun comes in the practice room

**wzpgsr** · 05-09-2016, 09:55 PM

Man, I have spent several months on Module 2 and I am pleased to report that as of tonight, I am moving on to Module 3. At this point, I have written 11 of my own etudes using Richie's rhythm templates, and slowly but surely, I can hear and feel that my ability to navigate the simple changes of a basic blues using chord tones and basic approaches embellishments is improving. I plan to continue using the more recent etudes that I wrote as warm-ups as I dig in to Module 3. I'll also start working my way through the Candy Bar licks from Module 2. Module 2 was jam packed full of stuff, so don't be frustrated if it's taking a long time. Go as slow as you need to and let this stuff work its way into your ears and your muscle memory.

**AlsoRan** · 05-09-2016, 10:27 PM

You good folks do know that sooner or later, one of us is going to have to post a recording showing some of what we have mastered through taking the zellon course.

I plan to do it after module 2, and after I have worked in some comping from my fareed haque comping course as I want to be be able to do both together. It won't be at a Martijn Van Iterson level, but it should show my progress.

**wzpgsr** · 05-09-2016, 10:53 PM

Richie created a forum on his site for posting etudes. I've posted a couple of things there but all I heard in response (besides Richie) was crickets.

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**AlsoRan** · 05-10-2016, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

Richie created a forum on his site for posting etudes. I've posted a couple of things there but all I heard in response (besides Richie) was crickets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess I should not be surprised. That forum does not seem to be very active, yet.

Its pretty clear that posting here would make more of an impact and allow for more varied feedback as forum members weigh in with their thoughts.

I am thinking that I will post in both forums.

**Melbournejazz** · 07-11-2016, 10:33 PM

Hey all. Anyone still working through the course? Care to share an update?

**wzpgsr** · 07-11-2016, 10:50 PM

Sure, what would you like to know? I am pretty close to starting the etudes from Module 3. I have been working through Module 3 while continuing to do work on the "Candy Bars" from Module 2, in addition to working on tunes, transcribing, etc.

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**AlsoRan** · 07-11-2016, 11:11 PM

I have fallen off the wagon, as I have in the past on other courses. I am very active doing other things but not staying with the course.

I noodle around with module 2 stuff and it will be another two to three months before I can finally get out of that module with my other projects.

Still, I have worked some Bebop Calisthenics into my playing and will trudge along at my snails pace. I do so want to be able to retain the lion share of the information.

**odel** · 07-11-2016, 11:42 PM

I started 6 weeks ago. Module 1 was ok, I find the fingerings quite doable and am only concentrating on what is required (only 3 patterns so far, not trying to cram in the others until I need them). Over blues, these make sense and the program is forcing me to be able to identify 3rds, flat 7ths etc quickly. Should have this down from my own playing over the years but the course makes me recognize how 'informal' my knowledge was and how much I relied on feel and sound, not on my brain thinking about stuff in advance and automatically id'ing the tones.

Now on module 2. The fingerwork is not hard, the effort is in the calisthenics and being able to play a progression based on the notation that is built on knowing intervals ("play 5th to 6th then to 3rd, from there change chord and pick up its 5th to b7th...etc). Essential stuff, and I sort of know that I have to know this, but the course forces you to do it repeatedly until you get comfortable. So far, the price of entry seems very reasonable given the material provided, and I think there's so much more to come. I actually find it easier to schedule practice and meet deadlines with this approach than I do with a regular teacher -- go figure.

**Melbournejazz** · 07-12-2016, 12:48 AM

Thanks all. Very helpful.

wzpgsr - I was interested if the course's later material was still resonating with people. Sounds like yes.

**joe2758** · 07-12-2016, 08:03 AM

i fell off too. I don't regret the time I spent focusing on the course (about 3-4 modules), but there's just too much other stuff that is better suited to my goals.

**vhwang** · 07-12-2016, 10:02 AM

The good-

I am on module 6. . I have all 7 of his fingering down and can go through cycle 5 with them. What I think is important about it is knowing which finger is playing what degree of scale the whole time, instead of flopping fingers like the blues. Also I think it is important ( instead of knowing the CAGED format and thinking if I play G major I can also play D mixolydian), Richie gives out the formulas for the scales ex mixolydian 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 that can the be applied to other scales, ex dorian 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7. If you know your scale degrees down and which finger you are at all time, easily to apply. I found his bebop calisthenics a good mental exercise. Richie also goes over bebop devices- approaches which you see in other books, but his lessons are monthly he gives you time to try and absorb it.

The bad-
The jazz etudes are nothing more than exercises, nothing jazzy sounding about them. The make your own etudes same thing- don't sound jazzy at all. After 6 months of this, it gets kinda boring and you don't feel musical at all.

I hope he is laying the foundation for something more, but right now kinda bored with the material. Haven't taken the next step in sounding like a jazz guitar player.

**Groyniad** · 07-12-2016, 12:24 PM

if you don't discover it yourself it usually feels pointless very quickly

you spend your whole time trying to de-code the teacher's notation etc. - very boring

**NSJ** · 07-12-2016, 01:13 PM

If you are looking for a panacea or some magical elixir, you'll never find it. On the other hand, if you decide that you are trying to incorporate one or two very important and fundamental things into your playing, and spend a lot of time focusing and trying to internalize these, you'll get something worthwhile out of the process.

I certainly didn't finish this course or fixate on each and every exercise; I used it to improve my ability to plan changes, to play chord tones.

For that alone, it was worth it.

**princeplanet** · 07-12-2016, 03:57 PM

Been reading these kinds of threads for years, and I gotta wonder if any one ever finished either a video or hard book course that produced a fully formed Jazz guitarist. And I do mean ever. There are so many "method" books out there, and have been for decades (more recently on line courses), and they're all as unique as the players that compiled them. Yet it seems quite certain to me that, for instance, if you followed the Joe Pass method, that you will not think and play like Joe Pass. At the very best, you may play like a pale imitation, but what is the point in that? You spend 10 thousand hours in the pursuit of being a lame copy of something?

I find these complete methods to be outrageously audacious. "Learn everything exactly the way I learned, even the accidental things I learned, or the things I may have learned badly, or out of ignorance. You should want to play exactly like me, so learn every position, every fingering, every exercise exactly as I show you...".

Surely we all know that no Jazz guitarist was ever built this way? The only way they're made is by learning from many different teachers (and players, colleagues etc) as well as their own experiences of trial and error. Fewer still become accomplished players by being completely self taught, but it has been done. However, can you name me one great player that learned from a single "method"? No, we each of us feast on the smorgasbord of offerings we find in places like this forum, in several books, from our own listening etc etc. We take a bit from here and a bit from there, and we each fill our plate differently (sorry for the appalling analogy!). Good thing too, it makes us all different. It's our own unique "taste" that determines what we wish to learn, not someone else's....

I'm sure Richie's course has some great little tidbits there for us all, and like some of the posters above are saying, it's OK to take what you like and move on to something else. Don't feel like a "quitter" for doing that, you'd probably be more the quitter if you stick too faithfully to the program. Finding your own path is the fun bit to this journey, and I worry that some people are looking for the single simple solution, and for it to be spoon fed to them!

Look, I know most of you know what I'm saying is obviously true, but a lot of people have been reading this thread and one or 2 may be impressionable or desperate or misguided enough to not yet have had the realisation that good players design their own course over a period of many years, some of which seem to have been wasted on ineffectual or at least inappropriate (for them) diversions. It's all good, and it's all fun. Jazz Guitar = one of the most challenging disciplines one could take on in this life. If you want "easy" or instant gratification, you can always take up the piano!