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I admit to being guilty of less participation there than here. I guess just mostly out of habit. Also, this is the only forum in which I have been active. As it is, I think I spend too much time here. And truthfully I have been working on some technical things, as well as having to work on tunes for a variety of situations (which is a whole other topic). So I have therefore been incorporating the course slowly into my regular routine. But thanks for the reminder Jazzy.
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01-18-2016 05:17 PM
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I hear you, srlank! This is practically the only thread I still participate in. Overdoing it may lead to a lot of wasted time that could be better spent practicing, etc. On the other hand, forum interaction, with the instructor and other students, has its benefits, too. It’s all about balance.
Originally Posted by srlank
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I like his example (-at the beginning; it's a long video and I haven't watched it all yet) where he takes a phrase and plays it in all seven fingering patterns through the cycle. I told myself, "Mark, you need to do this every day. Take one phrase--1 or 2 bars---and play it through all 12 keys while focusing on the intervals and fingerings used." Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
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These 7 shapes seem to line up better while holding the chord shapes within the shapes while playing them.
question. Does he use these 7 shapes as a framework for learning scales like harmonic minor? OrLast edited by bobsguitars09; 01-18-2016 at 10:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
I would assume yes, he doesn't have HarMi in his scale book, but for Dorian and MelMi he just alters the major fingering as necessary.
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Just an FYI: Richie has put together the final chapter of the course online. Chapter 9 on bird blues. This is also where he starts to put the fingerings together and integrates them, showing you how to transition from one to the other. I watch the first few lessons. Good job.
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My internet connection is squirelly at work, (where I do all my forum activity)...don't tell anyone. I can not log in to Richie's site at work to participate in forum activity. When I get home, I try and never waste time typing when I can be playing. Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
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Yes I saw that Originally Posted by NSJ
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Good news, though I'm still down here on the ground in Module 2. I'm not even halfway through it (-though I've gained a lot from the bebop calisthenics and jazz etudes). Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I was one of the first to join August 13th and my Module 6 opened up this month. I can tell you this course is a lot of work, so comprehensive if you do everything Richie asks. But I think it really teaches you a great way of learning improvisation.
Ken
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A question if I may:
I followed this whole thread, trying to find out wether or not to subscribe for Richie Zellon's course.
At a certain moment I decided not to because I didn't see the profit in changing the 5 positions I use, that I got from Martino's Linear Expressions. I use these with a varying fingering, just what feels or sounds good.
But now I just discovered Reg (just amazing!) and his thread on scales. It convinced me to want step over into 7 positions with set fingerings. This to eliminate my visual step from the proces, and to more effectively work towards having the fretboard as one big grit. Reg's first finger stretches seem for me much preferable to Richie's 4th finger stretches.
But Mr. Zellon's course, going into all the 'nuts and bolts', is very alluring to me. So to anyone who might want to advise: Do you think I could follow the course with Reg's fingerings? Or should I just go with the 4th finger stretches against my own judgement? Or should I not care about fingerings... Or should I spent the money on a few lessons with Reg (if at all possible)? Or...Last edited by 57classic; 02-10-2016 at 08:21 AM.
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When I get back to it, it will be with first finger stretches. I understand where Richie is coming from . It's just a different organization and reference from what I've done previously . It's mostly all the same anyway. It mostly overlaps , about 80% . But two of the first three fingerings are the ones which are different. Originally Posted by 57classic
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-10-2016 at 09:19 AM.
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I struggled with the fourth finger stretches as well. First finger stretches are no problem for me.
After a few weeks, the stretches are not as bad, but with my comparatively shorter baby finger, I am starting to have doubts that it will ever be as fluid as I would like.
Still, I am trying very hard to "assign" certain tones to certain fingers so that like a typewriter, I always know what I am going to get.
I had to back off the course to learn several songs for a band that wants me to play with them in another genre, so I can't say for certain that I have mastered it. But I will try again in a couple of months.
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Thanks Matt and AlsoRan!
Matt, just to have it clear, do you say that it's doable/pleasant to go into the course with somewhat different fingerings? If so: is it easy for you to translate every etude or exercise into different patterns?
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My sense is no. To me it is like serving two masters. It would be one thing for Reg, or Richie (or someone at their level with their experience and background) to add-on the other fingerings. But I think it would be working at cross purposes to do them both at (or very near) the same time. I paid $89 for Richie's course and haven't worked in it at all lately. I prefer Reg's fingerings (--I suspect Richie knows them too). If I had it to do over again, I would pass on Richie's course. It is good stuff but I feel like Nicodemus talking with Jesus (in the third chapter of the Fourth Gospel), "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" I'm not too old to learn--thank God---but I'm too old to start over from the beginning. Originally Posted by 57classic
Richie's emphasis on syncopation (the rhythm lab) and composition (the rhythm templates) is important, and his jazz etudes are fine. But I'm spending more time with Reg's fingerings and Herb Ellis' books.
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That's a very clear answer.
Thanks for your honesty, Mark, much appreciated!
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You're welcome. Richie is a great player and a good teacher. I hate seeming to knock him. I'm not. But like I said, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't have signed up for it. Originally Posted by 57classic
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Hey everyone. Module 2 is a ton of work, but I'm really digging composing and practicing my own etudes. If you haven't gotten this far yet, it's worth the wait. Anyways, I posted my first etude based on rhythm template 1 over on Richie's forum. If you HAVE gotten that far, please take the time to post some of your own etudes. I'm curious to see what everyone is coming up with.
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It was personally simpler for me, but I can already read somewhat, pretty easily in lower positions, and I also knew these other fingerings to start. of course, it's easier with basic stuff in the beginning, like arpeggios, but you can work out the other things, for the chromatics which come later, as well. Originally Posted by 57classic
Combed through William Levitt to try to get a philosophy for dealing with heavily chromatic and found a brief, somewhat vague statement about not sliding too much, and exploring "every possible fingering", when doing chromatic approaches, enclosures etc. To me, it basically looks like he's saying "defer to the target note", in terms of fingering. In other words, play the third where it would be in the original arpeggio and use stretches etc. to get the other outside notes in that context. So, those were kind of my guidelines for approaching it with a different fingering.
Leavitt has somewhat different guidelines for reading more diatonic, in position. They just don't really apply as much, once you get more chromatic. Off the top of my head, played through modules 2-4 études without running into major problems. A lot of it is really just potayto potahto. I wouldn't post any of Richie's actual études, obviously, but maybe some of my own, as was suggested above. I think it would be cool for people to post some of their own things.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-10-2016 at 12:42 PM.
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Sorry to hear that people are giving up on this course. I found it very useful, even if I skip around a lot and do not follow everything in order.
I think part of the problem is that the expectations are too high: you were not going to learn to play jazz from an Internet course or a book . This course was set up or described here as "the best on the Internet ".
Which is of course hyperbole. I think that if you don't start out with a really good teacher who will put a lot of basics in terms of technique, The instrument, the music into proper perspective, people will tend to take a scatterbrained, throw a whole bunch of stuff against the wall and hope something sticks approach.
In other words, you have to have a systematic approach that helps you process information and internalize it and learn what you can use from something in order to incorporate it into your playing .
This is a very pivotal year for me, I've started to put in 4-5-6 hour days I music. My goal is to put seven hours a day on guitar and one hour on piano. Right now I'm up to four hours on guitar and a few minutes here and there on piano . But I am increasing steadily and hope to get there.
Thus this course is one small facet of my daily practice routine, it's really helped a lot in terms of how to play changes. See this is the goal I set for myself in terms of learning something from it: how to improvise on Chord tones.
Regarding the fingerings, while people have to have a systematic approach to these things, they should not be fetishized and allow for fluid, multifaceted approaches. That is to say, how many times do we really start a scale, partial scale or even arpeggio on the root?
I would say keep at it, but put the course in proper perspective: it's not a panacea, but it can be very useful.
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I agree with you about this and that is precisely why I think Reg's fingerings are a better foundation: they are easily absorbed, they are inter-related (and the interrelations are easy to see), and provides a solid foundation to work from. And it's all on, what, six sheets of paper? Originally Posted by NSJ
Richie is thorough and organized. No question about that. I suspect that some of his youngest pupils make great strides in a year. But for older students who already know some things--but not everything--it is a lot to take on.
Frankly, I've gone back to playing lines from Herb Ellis' books and they sound a lot better since my picking has improved! ;o)
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Its not easy to do the work in Richie's course, but he has a plan that think will work to make you a much better improviser. Sure you can learn lines from any book, but it seems so much better when you actually understand what you're doing and why it works. Then you can actually come up with your own stuff on the spot. It takes real sacrifice to work on a lot of this stuff, it's not always fun going though the Bebop calisthenics, but like anything your building a foundation on which to stand. There is a tremendous amount of information in his course and the crazy thing is, there is another one to follow!!!
Ken
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I just don't have the time, right now, for heavily working the course. I don't see that there's any CONFLICT though, honestly, with fingerings, between these different approaches. They're mostly the same.
It's probably worth owning a copy of William Levitt's 3-in-one version of the modern method, just for the breakdown of scale evolution through the cycle in volume 3. It's really worth understanding how all of these things fit together. You can absolutely use first finger stretches with any of this material. And organization of the instrument is the same, regardless of whether you're working your way up the neck, or working cyclically, in one position.
It's the same instrument. To be fair, Richie isn't laying out a basic organization of the fretboard. It's really a chord tone soloing METHOD.
I spent several months working out of a non-guitar book with a similar approach, and it was highly beneficial to my playing, hearing, and understanding. Probably more so than anything I'd done before that. I say all of that, in spite of the fact that it was frustrating, reinventing the wheel, and trying to make it all work on the guitar. Chord tone soloing is foundational for playing jazz, at least on other instruments. There are many schools which teach this way of playing before working all of the scales etc. This is where Bert Ligon, Jimmy Amadie and others are coming from.
I still think that this material is really solid, and I'll definitely be back to it.
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In my case, I am definitely not giving up. Originally Posted by NSJ
The logic flow of the course worked well for me so I plan to go back once things settle down again in my personal life and I get past a few short-term goals.
I am willing to follow his course to the letter, including the fingering.
I just wish I had your time and drive to dedicate to music. You are truly pursuing the path of true musician.
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I wouldn't necessarily say I am giving up on the course. I have had to take a break from it, as I have other obligations. When I get time to practice, I find Richie too dry and not very much fun. Music is suppose to be fun. I find I can not concentrate on learning these very important basics when I have a limited amount of time. Yes, the fingerings are cool to know, and all the different modes are great to have but, in the real real world I find that if my music isn't fun, no body will listen anyway. Isn't music still suppose to be about the listener not the psuedo-masturbation that these fingerings really are.
When I get more time to devote to this, I will go back. But in the meantime... party on!
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