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Originally Posted by Reg
Definitely basic (default) neck organization of fingerings. It’s designed as the foundation to build on and later incorporate 3 notes per string fingerings as well as alternative varieties covering multiple positions. Richie explains this and much more in his Scale & Arpeggio Fingerings book.
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01-14-2016 01:49 PM
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Richie addresses the issue of strain in the forum. Playing with the guitar tilted at a 45 degree angle also is extremely helpful. Originally Posted by Drapte
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"Failure to address pentatonics?"
Well, Ok. But.
What I like about this course is the focus is a very narrow but it covers that small area very specifically, exhaustively, thoroughly, and meticulously.
As mentioned before, most of this course is about how to play chord changes over BASIC dominant seventh harmony (i.e., I7-IV7-V7, i.e., the blues form ).
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[QUOTE=Reg;605789
Staying in one position when actually performing... gets old really quick.[/QUOTE]
Right. And Richie's not stressing that. But he has found among his students over many years that playing "vertically" (-playing through standard changes in one position) is a weakness, so he focuses on that first.
I think these are Richie's default fingerings. (He graduated from Berklee, so he knows those fingerings too. I don't know those so I can't speak to how much these are like them.) He sees them as an extension of CAGED---he knows Pass, Kessel, and many other great jazz guitarists used a CAGED approach and he's not trying to reinvent that wheel. He's simply added a bit to facilitate playing through the fingerings in a cycle. (I see Richie's contribution in that: it's not simply about how to finger a C scale or whatever all over the neck but how to go from C to F to Bb or wherever all over the neck. His fingerings are conceived to link up conveniently all over the guitar.)
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Spot on Mark!!!!
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This is a Bebop Improv, not Blues Improv course, therefore the pentatonic scale is not at issue here. Richie chose the 12-bar blues format for its harmonic simplicity, structural economy, and evolutionary nature. All the principles, of Bebop guitar improvisation and Jazz guitar improvisation in general, can be applied within this simpler and shorter structure, before applying them to the full fledged 32-bar standard piece. Originally Posted by Drapte
Five fret stretch is common in Jazz no matter what finger combination is used. If you experience wrist strains, I dare say, you’re doing something wrong and you need to correct it. Richie does have a few words of advice for us regarding strains on the Bebop Forum. Bottom line, It’s not fair to say there’s disregard for pentatonics and strains with left wrist.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Richie says that in his book and you've said it and it sits real uneasy with me. I've read a lot of Pass interviews and articles saw some video tutors. I used to have Kessel's Guitar Book I don't remember them ever talking about CAGED. I have read Pass saying he thought in chords/voicing and he had note patterns he related to the voicings. So when Joe thought of a chord voicing be it original, a sub, or a reharm he knew the notes around it he could solo with.
I get amazed at all the chatter about scale patterns and what label/name for them, it's like a religious war over dots on a grid. There are 72 notes from 1st fret to 12th in standard tuning and they haven't moved anywhere. All the patterns are basically the same, some move a note to from one string to another but subtle variations. To me all these patterns are training wheels you eventually want to take off. I say focus more on learning the 72 notes on the fretboard, letting your subconscious make fingering choices, and play.
Okay coffee is done, rant over.
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No one owns fingerings.
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I am using the fingerings as my basic neck organization of fingerings - combined with the inversions, arps and passing/neighbour tone studies etc I feel I am seeing the kind of progress I had hoped for in previous attempts at learning at this level. It just seems to me the way this is organized and laid out makes sense and encourages staying with it.
I have never delved this far into a fretboard wide interconnected fingering system so I have nothing to compare with really but there are chord shapes I have tried that are far more troubling with respect to stretches than anything in Richie's fingering system . Having decided to commit to this thing one aspect I looked at early on was the very basic consideration of how I hold the guitar . I looked at a "classical" posture, I looked at a "flamenco" posture , looked at vids of many jazz players - " hunchers" "chesters" "dippers" etc
. I knew I was being "lazy" and realized much of the sloppiness and difficulty I had experienced in the past was related to simply how I was holding the instrument. I now have a new playing position that makes tonal clarity , ease of fingering movement and stretches much easier to achieve for me. So while not part of the course changing how I hold the instrument has made the course easier and more accessible and playing more fluid. It's all interconnected
Will
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Again, I get frustrated with discussions about what CAGED is, because it's just not clearly defined in the first place. I think that if you take the very general idea of scales being basically structured around chord types on the fretboard, (which is what Joe did and is what CAGED is basically about), then the statement you quoted sort of makes sense. Maybe he's basically just pointing out that the scale fingerings are based around the chords the way you're used to thinking of them? Originally Posted by docbop
Anyway, the thing that Richie is doing differently from Joe and other CAGEDers is that he wants to be able to start any scale from the 1st, 2nd, or 4th finger roots. I don't think the math works for doing that with 5 positions. I'd imagine that that's where you arrive at 7.
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Pass definitely used the term "CAGED". I don't know if Kessel did, but if you look at his basic shapes in his "Guitar Book", they're CAGED shapes. (But just four, not five.) Herb Ellis didn't use the term CAGED either, but he used the same basic shapes. (Herb tended to think in terms of three shapes and the connections between them, very much like Fred Sokolow in his "Fretboard Roadmaps" books, F-D-A.) Pretty much the same shapes Charlie Christian used for major chords. (Herb and Charlie used other shapes for dominant 9th and 13th chords, and for some minor chords. I think Herb uses 9 shapes for his "All the Shapes You Are" book, though they're not nine very-different shapes.) Originally Posted by docbop
Joe Pass IIRC talked about the 'trinity', scale / chord / arpeggio. I think in his "Guitar Style" book that is a basic exercise" play the chord, the arpeggio, the scale. Richie focuses on arpeggios but he knows the scales too. He thinks in intervals, which is cool. I like his "intervallic script"----when I practice his bebop calisthenics, I don't look at the notes (-much) or the tab but at the interval names: 1 3 2 3 or whatever. It really reinforces one's knowledge of the fingerboard.
But back to the main point. I don't know when the word "CAGED" became common. I never heard it as a kid. I think it started with the "Fretboard Logic" books, but those came out after I'd already learned lots of scales and arpeggios.
I find Herb's shape system easiest to use but I value Richie's approach because it increases my understanding of the intervals. (Herb knew them too, of course, but it is possible to play his lines like one might play pentatonic licks---learn 'em and shift 'em around without really grasping why / how they work, and that knowledge tends to help one create one's own lines...)
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I'm new to all of this so I'm not sure I am understanding why folks seem to be having issues with what seems to be a discussion over the etymology of CAGED.
I do agree that Richie's approach of making sure that the student understands and sees the scale/chord/arpeggio relationships in terms of intervals as a foundation step as very important and informative.
Will
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:-) Sorry. It's what nerds do. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
In discussing what the course is, it's somewhat helpful to contrast with what it's not. But CAGED is kind of contentious, in and of itself.
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Originally Posted by docbop
yeaaaaah, but.
by the time Joe said that I'm guessing he was already in the jazz guitar penthouse so to speak, and the foundation had been laid decades prior.
meaning, he also told a story of how his dad or uncle or somebody asked that he demonstrate his ability to play ALL of his scales, which he promptly didat 14.
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Yeah, Joe talks about how much he practiced as a kid. Before school, after school, again after dinner. His dad expected it of him, and when Joe would get one thing down his father would tell him to do something else with it. Joe knew his scales, chords, and arpeggios. (Duh!) And tunes, my God, he knew a lotta tunes! He had that solid foundation to which he could add newer things. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Oh Joe is mainly a self taught he talks about starting a couple books, but never finished them, he learned by learning tunes and his dad telling him to "fill it up" in other words do more fills and solo. I think of Joe and Benson and others from the early day they are mainly self-taught and had great ears and by learning tunes they learned the harmony to relate to what they heard. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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From an interview that's been posted here before: Originally Posted by docbop
>>>>Was guitar playing easy for you in the beginning?
I guess it came sort of easy for me; I have certain difficulties, not a lot. But you've got to remember that I grew up playing the guitar. I started when I was nine, and by the time I was nine and a half or ten, I was doing seven or eight hours' practice every day. I did two hours' practice at six o'clock in the morning before I went to school, and another two hours as soon as I got home from school in the afternoon. Then I did four hours at night before I went to bed.
I did that until I was fourteen or fifteen. I didn't like it - I hated it, but my father was very firm about it; he saw a little something happening, so he figured he'd just push. I don't remember too much how I felt about it except that I'd rather be outside playing ball and things. I never could ride a bike, like even today I can't do these things. But, I know how I learned, and what I practised. Like, for instance, somebody would play the guitar on the Sunday morning radio programme, any guitarist - maybe Vincente Gomez or somebody, and my father would say, 'Get the guitar Joe, and copy it.' And I'd sit there and try, and he'd say, 'Did you get it?' and I'd not got it ,cause I don't know what I'm doing. Then he'd say, 'OK, learn this song,' and he'd whistle a tune and I'd find the notes, and then he'd say, 'Fill it up; don't leave any spaces.' That meant to do all the runs in between the phrases of melody.
Then I had a couple of music books; the Nick Lucas and Carcassi, like I said, and every day I had to start from the beginning and go through them. And then he'd also bring home piano music, anything . . . like, once he brought home the Flight of The Bumble Bee and said, 'Play it.' That was the way I learnt to play, by actually playing a lot and filling in all the spaces and not leaving gaps in the music. And then he would say, 'Play me a song - make it up.' He might do this every day. He didn't know anything about music, he didn't play an instrument; but he wanted us to become something more than a steel-worker like himself. For instance, he had the idea that my brother who was eight or nine was going to be a writer, so he had him write stories every day, books of stories; he'd say, 'Make up a story and write.'<<<<
And later, when asked about his knowledge of scales:
>>>>Did you learn scales?
Yes (demonstrating about a dozen scales all over the fingerboard, and playing with impeccable technique)
Out of a book?
No, my father would say, 'Play a scale,' and I'd play one and he'd say, 'What about the rest? There must be one above,' so we'd figure them out. I'd start the scale on the root of the chord and I'd go as far as my hand would reach without going out of position, say, five frets, and then I'd go all the way back. So when ! practised I'd start right away on scales. As well as the usual ones, I'd play whole tone scales, diminished, dominant sevenths, and chromatic scales. Every chord form, all the way up, and this took an hour.
Another thing I'd do which is something I get my pupils on, is make up scale patterns. You do this so that the head and the fingers are doing the same thing. You continue making up these lines for as long as you can without making a mistake, and if you do make a mistake then you go back over it. I think one of the things about speed is . . . people say, 'He sounds fast and clean': it's not really as fast as you think, it's because your fingers and your head know where they're going. This is subconscious of course. You should be able to hum along with whatever you're playing. I don't sing out loud, but it's there in the head; you have to have a melodic thought.<<<<<
Joe Pass Interview
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I love it so far, just signed up yesterday. Thanks for sharing.
Last edited by greent; 01-16-2016 at 12:20 PM.
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Richie has added the new video to Module 1 titled “Finger Stretches When Playing Heptatonic Scales” that addresses the following topics: Misconceptions, Habits, Comfort Zones & Personal Bias, and Practical Advice. Don’t miss it!
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Guess I dropped out a couple days too soon like to hear his comments on the topic. Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
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your welcome Originally Posted by greent
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Thank you for the heads up. How shrewd and intelligent a decision this was by Richie. He asks for feedback on his course and as we can see, he responds. And I love that his course is flexible enough for him to respond. Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
Awesome.
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I notice that when Richie plays, that his right foot is elevated. I can't however see what is raising his foot. Anyone know? If not, I'll ask on the forum.
And yes. It is extremely noticeable how quickly he has been responding to questions regarding all aspects of his course, as well as his willingness to remain flexible while maintaining the integrity of his method. It sure doesn't hurt also that he is friendly, down-to-earth and approachable.Last edited by srlank; 01-18-2016 at 04:14 PM.
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Thanks for the tip! I hadn't thought of looking back at Module 1 to see if anything had been added. Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
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In his surveys Richie also promised to formally send out an email sometime this month announcing the new expanded duration of the course, allowing for longer access to the site, as well as adding more Ear Training videos. It's worth participating in his forum, but still, only a handful of Bebop Forum members are active there.
Last edited by Jazzy Beatle; 01-18-2016 at 05:17 PM.
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