-
Someone mentioned that to me before. Maybe when I was doing a lot of 3 notes per string stuff. I hadn't thought about much in a long time. But now that I'm doing some fingerings that involve a five-fret span (-3 nps, though not on all strings in a pattern), and that's a stretch when starting on the low F on the first fret. Thanks for the reminder! ;o)
Originally Posted by vintagelove
-
01-09-2016 10:15 PM
-
Nevermind, all. Richie got back to me right away and fixed everything. Class act! Originally Posted by Paul B
-
Hi
Reg ? you posted - " lots of 1st finger references, with fourth finger stretches. That usually slows technical skills down "
I am a rank beginner but - I am wondering if you would elaborate on the " slows technical skills down" part of your comment - why would that approach create that situation?? I am subscribed and in the early stages of Richie's method and committed to continuing - I like and can relate to the structure/framework he is sketching out so far and - that said I also spend a lot time time trying to dissect your Utube videos - working on your " all blues " and others ideas at the moment.
Just hoping to avoid pitfalls I guess
Will
-
What level are most of you signed up for?
Silver - Gold - Platinum
Thanks
-
Thanks for all the info on this course. I've decided that once I am through Frank Vignolas modern method truefire course I am going to sign up for this. It sounds like it will compliment Franks course really well.
-
Frank's a great player. I have a few of his books of etudes (-blues, rhythm changes) and like them a lot. He's smart and tasty. Originally Posted by Mr. Pocket
-
I'm gold. (Geez, in all my 57 years I've never said that before: "I'm gold.") Originally Posted by edh
-
I'm silver. If you're really sceptical or cautious, you might do silver just to check it out, but go with gold, at the very least, for value I'd say. You really have to know your way around some stuff and be more disciplined than me to make the silver work for you probably.
Traditional good-better-best. The silver is basically there to sell you on gold. I'll probably upgrade later. Right now I'm working on some other things, and I have no time. Way more material for the money than most at any level. Looks like he's just getting going with it, and I think he's onto something.
-
Hey Will... don't me wrong I think the course looks great, dig Richie's playing and it might really get somewhere. If your a real rank beginner. You should be working on more basics before getting into bebop... but Richie's approach seems to be from blues direction... so maybe it does. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
My comments about fingerings is about basic positions... when using base positions with 1st finger stretches... you naturally have tension in your hand... which makes a difference when you perform at faster tempos... not that much bebop is performed slow... Any fingering works easily slow. And same thing with 4th finger stretches... creates tension which translates into...non effortless playing at faster tempos... which leads to different feel of music. Becomes mechanical, Most of us are human
Hope that helps... like I said the courses look cool. But if you don't know and can't perform... scales, arpeggios, chords inversions ... know your changes, all the basic technical guitarist skills...I would guess nothing that someone couldn't figure out themselves, anyway that should come before bebop.
My you tube videos are not really for learning from... they are usually to go with threads on this forum.
-
Yeah, I like his teaching style in the modern method. It's setting the foundation that I never got for all styles of music and he breaks things down in a way that's avoids rote memorization and connects the hand to the ear. As in learning to hear the interval I want to play, so the fingering doesn't matter as much because I know how to get to it a few different ways. That said, I really should to commit to positions as well for reading and not jumping around so much. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
Thanks Reg - the stretches related to the fingerings don't seem to be problematic right now - but I am not playing at higher tempos - so we shall see how that evolves . Thank you for the insights and I will keep your comments in mind. btw your Utube vids are a fantastic resource of ideas/concepts and examples of the kind of fluid expressive playing many of us aspire to achieve some day
so I beg to differ there is much to be learned from them - keep them coming
Will
-
I would like to post an opinion here I feel I should share about the fingerings.
So I previously had learned the 5 CAGED fingerings, managed to fit all 7 diatonic arpeggios into each 5 shapes along with melodic / harmonic minor fingerings and altered. In short I had begun to map the fretboard. I had begun to then learn to target each tone of the arpeggio of Autumn leaves, you know, really starting to see intervals etc. Then I came along Richie's course and his 7 fingerings.
When I found out about Richie's fingerings I was at first a little let down, I didn't want to go full circle but I was open to giving them a go, especially considering I had dumped $89 into the course. I learned his fingerings with ease and was working through the bebop callisthenics. I started to notice that although the fingerings were great they don't allow you to play through the cycle without moving out of position. For example when you modulate from G Mixolydian to G# Mixolydian you have to move your 5 fret radius up a half step. The next thing I noticed was that tendons in my left arm began to strain in a way that did not feel comfortable.
Discouraged by these two elements I began to seriously review the fingerings pros and cons. I have a guitar teacher, a reasonably accomplished Jazz guitarist who I'd rather not name. His opinion was the these fingerings "seemed like a lot of work" . I also was lucky enough to get a response from semi famous guitarist Martin Miller who told me he based his fingerings around the CAGED system. I also learned Guthrie Govan also uses this method as outlined in his book "Creative Guitar". I've noticed quite a lot of acclaimed guitarists use CAGED as their foundation which Richie points out in his initial explanation of the fingerings.
And then something struck me about CAGED and Richie's fingerings and why ultimately I believe CAGED is a stronger foundation. In my opinion, of which I am open to criticism, Richie's fingerings are too formulaic for me. The thing with CAGED is that the fact that not everything fits into it like a puzzle is exactly why I like it more. CAGED Forces you to work with and around it, it also encourages you to use multiple shapes / forms at once and finally and ultimately see the fretboard for what it is. Whilst for me Richies system makes it far to easy to stick to one position and never move and or think above and beyond. Another big flaw with Richie's system that I haven't seen anybody outline is that it is incredibly difficult to play pentatonics over.
My conclusion is that CAGED is a system for guitar, while Richie's fingerings are based on theoretical practicality. Given the advice from people I have spoken to I am going to stick to CAGED.
Please note I highly endorse and am loving Richie's course and I encourage anybody to pick it up because it is incredibly thorough. I personally am just going to stick to the CAGED fingerings.
ThanksLast edited by Drapte; 01-13-2016 at 06:56 AM.
-
My problem with this lies in the example chosen: going from G to G# is NOT cyclic movement. It's chromatic. Going from C to F to Bb to Eb to Ab and so on is cyclic. Originally Posted by Drapte
Also, wouldn't you have to move your 5-fret radius up a half step if going from G to G# in CAGED fingerings?
-
I think it's worth acknowledging the simple fact that CAGED is about 90% the same as a system like this if you account for the fact that there are two extra positions. But to be fair, in my opinion, it's starting with two of the most difficult ones in this course.
Anyway, re. stretch fingerings, William Leavitt introduces 5 positions which are analogous to their CAGED counterparts in his books. The E form and C forms from CAGED are 100% identical. The G form has one stretch which replaces two shifts from the CAGED version. The A form has one stretch which replaces a shift (with a counterpart lower extension on the six string). The D form, (which is actually 1st finger Dorian on the 6th string in CAGED), is the one which is vastly different . And has first finger stretches with Leavitt on the first, fifth, and sixth strings.
Anyway, if you're working from Leavitt's stretch fingerings basis, Richie evolves the fingerings two more times around the circle of fifths to arrive at the other two positions, which are his FIRST two mixolydian fingerings.
I personally wouldn't have started with the two most difficult fingerings , but he's coming at it from a different philosophical place. Where William Leavitt is taking the five most easily played fingerings from major and using their mixolydian counterparts to play mixolydian, Richie's thinking of everything in reference to 1st finger.
Richie's reference isn't just the major scale, but the first finger. So in his world it makes the most sense to begin with first finger, sixth string . I personally think this is pretty difficult in the first position. Also , again, William Leavitt prioritizes the first first finger stretches over fourth, but if your reference is first finger you're probably not going to arrive at that.
I am compromising as well , subbing first finger stretch counterparts on these 4th-stretch fingerings . I'm also staying with the reference of my major scale basis rather than referencing everything from first finger.
I'm personally not going back to CAGED anytime soon, but if I were considering a compromise, I would have to heavily consider the forms which are mostly the same in both systems anyway: like E form, A form, C form. (That terminology is always a little confusing to me in CAGED though . If you thinking mixolydian, you're thinking about the V chords from the C form D form and E form). The G form, C form, and D form fit nicely in one hand position as well , but again, you're starting from the fourth finger for the I chord.
I just think if you started with the "overlap" fingerings , you can always change your mind . Not so heavily invested.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-13-2016 at 11:09 AM.
-
I wonder what it would be like to have started out with Richie's fingerings. I'll never know. I am where I am, having traveled a circuitous path to this place. Although I haven't forgotten what I've learned from Herb Ellis (-a shape system simpler than CAGED, at least initially) I appreciate the sense of knowing the fretboard better that I'm gaining from Richie's approach. It's a slow go but I'm learning important things and that keeps me going. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
I guess I’ll have to break my promise of not posting in this thread any more as it’s pointless to stand against the crowd.
However, I still think that further discussion should migrate to Richie’s forum, no matter how dull or difficult to navigate it appears to be.
As for the CAGED system and difficult fingerings I think it should be reiterated that Richie’s heptatonic fingering system is clearly derived from the CAGED system. He starts in the key of F simply because F is the lowest fretted note on the guitar and ascending from there, he shows the horizontal cycle of fingerings:
Pattern 1 is derived from the open E shape.
Pattern 7 is derived from the open D shape.
Pattern 6 is derived from the open C shape.
Pattern 5 is derived from the open B shape (extended CAGED).
Pattern 4 is derived from the open A shape.
Pattern 3 is derived from the open G shape.
Pattern 2 is derived from the open or non-Barre F shape (extended CAGED).
He does realize that the fingering he suggests is tough in the first position, but the main reason for this is that we want to be as consistent as possible with the fingers that correspond to each chord tone, both when playing the scale and the arpeggio derived from it.
In addition, Richie states that there are many reasons and instances where learning to stretch with the pinky without moving out of position will benefit you. He gives a clear example in one of his posts on the Bebop Forum. I guess it’s a matter of students’ trust in the system until it becomes evident for them.
The good news is that Richie teaches and demonstrates all the Bebop Calisthenics in the key of C (8th fret). In addition, the intervallic script enables us to play the etudes in C as well. This gives us plenty of time to work on and develop the necessary ring to pinky stretch, as we gradually move down to the lower register.
My ring to pinky stretch is getting better, but I still use and will continue to use the “Thumb Pivot” technique in the 1st position, if I can’t do the stretch comfortably and without strain or pain. This may not be an ideal solution at very fast tempos, but the majority of soloing is not done in the lowest register anyway. If you’re interested in this technique which such greats as Howard Roberts were exposed to, check the link in my previous post #325 on page 11 in this thread.
-
Originally Posted by vintagelove
Man. Realized I'm cheating this quite a bit on the stretch positions. I like what reg says about it being a reference as well. Originally Posted by Reg
I guess I'm used to thinking of the thumb as being one fret below the first finger, but that puts the thumb wrongly between the first and second, if it's one of the stretch fingerings. I need to work on cleaning this up, for the reference aspect at the very least.
Thanks.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-13-2016 at 03:15 PM.
-
Fair enough however you will eventually encounter a chromatic half step change even going through the cycle. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
And to answer your second question, yes. However one of the main benefits of Richie's system is minimalist movement not a feature necessarily guaranteed with CAGED. To me the disregard for pentatonics and strains with left wrist are too much for me. Do you find these problems too?Last edited by Drapte; 01-13-2016 at 10:47 PM.
-
I tried buying a membership last night. It took my payment information and it was processed. However, it never gave me a login or password. Is this normal for when everyone signed up? Do they email you login and password later? I tried using an email link to try and get in contact with Richie, but the link does not work. Any thoughts?
-
Originally Posted by vhwang
try this email
bebopguitar@richiezellon.com
-
I don't know about pentatonic scales and Richie's fingerings. I'm not that far along. Some stretches in first positions require more effort than I'm used to. I'll just have to get used to it. (I think this is why he starts the Bebop Calisthenics with C7 in the 8th position rather than F7 in the first. That's much easier.) Originally Posted by Drapte
-
Agreed. Originally Posted by Jazzy Beatle
I relate some of these shapes to Herb Ellis's approach, which is not strictly CAGED. Herb had 3 basic major shapes, 2 basic minor 7 shapes and 3 basic dominant 7 shapes. The part of Richie's fingerings that gives me the most trouble is the moving two frets back on the high E string where I would normally finger that note higher up on the B string. But I'm getting the hang of it.
-
Someone mentioned this in an earlier post, he emailed Richie and he sorted it very quickly. Hope this helps. Originally Posted by vhwang
-
... are you guy's using these fingerings as becoming your basic neck organization of fingerings. Or just a variation of your basic fingerings to cover a style of music or create a somewhat natural articulation pattern for performance.
I'm not sure where your going.... but at some time... your going to need to be able to jump all over the neck as needed.
Just as you make choices of which finger to stretch.... your eventually going to need to be able to make choices of which fingering pattern your your going to jump or transition to. So instead of stretching fingers... your going to stretch fingerings and locations on the neck.
Staying in one position when actually performing... gets old really quick.
-
If I recall correctly, these fingerings are just the absolute basic beginnings of how Richie organizes the fretboard. It's been a couple of months since I watched the introductory material, but I seem to remember him mentioning that in later modules, perhaps even the as-yet-unpublished second part of the course.
Yep, found it. In his introduction to the fingerings, Richie writes (emphasis mine):
While playing a scale that covers more than one position is useful for playing over an extended range horizontally, I believe that it is first essential to learn and understand all the proper fingerings necessary to master “stationary” playing in a vertical fashion (eg. staying in the same position), a task that many guitar methods fail to teach. This will enable us later on to incorporate 3 note per string fingerings as well as explore alternative varieties that encompass multiple positions.
Reply With Quote
Acoustic Image Clarus 2R Series III
Today, 12:57 PM in For Sale