The different needs of the listener and the performer in improvised jazz?

[christianm77]

First of all, great post. I didn't know about the different schools of thought regarding improvisation among legendary jazz performers. Please explain what you mean by "devised composition".

I found it surprising that Chick Corea would encourage players to write out their first choruses, as listening to his trio work in the early 70's, it sounds as though his music was as freshly improvised as any of the period.

I also ask that you write a little more about the contrast between Mozart and Beethoven's process. I wasn't aware that one relied more heavily of spur of the moment inspiration than the other.

Thanks for the kind words!

By "devised composition" I am going from my youth theatre days where you could make a devised show based on group improvisation workshops. By devised composition I mean the same thing in music - a group of people improvising a composition together and then refining it to become a set thing. If that makes sense! I sure there's a proper name for it.

I might be misremembering re: Chick, so don't quote me.... and I can't track it down. However, bear in mind that just because you plan something out doesn't mean you have to do it! It can be very helpful to have a plan in mind even if you then do something totally different. It's hard to do this on the band stand, so having a written first solo chorus could actually help you improvise more freely in the gig, strange though it might seem.

Re: Mozart and Beethoven, that's it really. Mozart regarded fluency and speed of composition as all important. His work is often first draft. However, he practiced very hard to reach this level of fluency, and needless to say started from a very early age (he was not just a 'natural talent' he had to work very hard to achieve his artistry, in combination with being naturally talented). He didn't really start writing his best stuff until he was into his 30s - so he had a lot of practice, and was very prolific, also a popular improvisor.

Beethoven on the other hand, liked to make sketches, revise and refine his music. He was also a noted improvisor, so maybe he appreciated more the differences between composition and improvisation, and the opportunities it offered to strengthen and improve his music. It's often said the Beethoven's music is less effortless than Mozart's, but the work that has gone in and the sense of something grand and dramatic unfolding in time gives Beethoven's music a different quality. It's hard to say how much of that is coming from my knowledge of the two composers working habits....

[Irez87]

Wanted to revive this thread with this video

Music is much more than theory, scales, and ear training sounds. Music has the power to trigger memories, the power to communicate a story with or without words for our listeners. I think we all need to be reminded of that (me too). I thought this video was quite beautiful.

Here is the back story:

"My grandparents Laura and Howard have been married 73 years. In this video Howard is 92 and Laura is 93. Laura (Grandma) is at a hospice facility making peace with her final days. I was lucky enough to capture this precious, heart-melting moment between the two of them. Howard (Grandpa) is singing to her their love song, the song that comforted her when he went away to fight in World War II.

At family gatherings, it was not uncommon for the two of them to sing this song together, each taking a verse and serenading the other. In fact, after fifty years of marriage, they renewed their vows and performed this song as a duet for the entire family at the reception. Sadly, Grandma is now too weak to sing, but that doesn't stop her from saying the words to him. Howard then takes over for her and sings the rest of the song to her while stroking her face.

Moments before this video began, when Grandma heard that Grandpa was in the room, she asked if she could hold him. Grandpa cannot stand on his own, but he immediately pulled his wheelchair close to her bed ready to make it happen. My cousin, Serena, who is a physical therapist, helped him to his feet and held him up throughout the entire song.

You might notice above her bed there is a sign that says, “Patient Blind.” That is because she has macular degeneration, so she cannot see much of anything but shadows and light. That doesn’t stop her from looking deep into her love’s eyes. Grandpa, on the other hand, has lost most of his hearing, so you’ll notice us repeating things for him since Grandma is to weak to raise her voice.

The song used in the video is “You’ll Never Know” performed by Rosemary Clooney with Harry James. Our family prefers this version because everyone always said Grandma had a voice just like Rosemary Clooney.

After posting this video to Facebook, it began to go viral and all the outpouring of love lifted everyone's spirits... including Grandma's! They originally gave her just a week to live, but hospice eventually deemed her well enough to go back home to live out her remaining days. As of this posting my beautiful Grandma Laura Virginia is still with us resting peacefully at home. Our family along with the wonderful people from hospice are taking care of her and making sure she remains as pain-free and comfortable as possible while she prepares for her nearing departure. We all thank you so much for the love and kind words."

I think the credit goes to Erin Solari, but because of the copyrights some stupid media company has the rights. Thank you Erin for posting such a heartfelt and beautiful moment and sharing it with the world. This is why we play music, folks. Nothing else, not even meeting people in person, can harness and trigger memories like the power of song as you advance in age.

[dizzy101]

To get back to addressing the OP, yes, the difference in the needs between the listener and the performer is an interesting issue.

In much of recent jazz, the focus lies heavily on improvisation. This means that players will often select tunes that are suitable for extended improvisations. They might choose a tune with a lesser melody over one with a better melody, for the reason that it is a better vehicle for improvisation than the other. As a result, songs that withstand the test of time aren't necessarily the best ones.

Take for instance Strayhorn's Lush Life. As far as I can see, this is not a very suitable song for improvisation. It's too complex and unpredictable. And, so, it's not as well known as it should be, because it's less often selected by players who are looking to play solos. In my book, this is a somewhat negative effect. Its not in the best interest of a listener who simply wants the best music (and not the best solos). I mean, as far as jazz compositions goes, Lush Life is as good as it gets, right?