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08-30-2015, 06:32 AM #26destinytot Guest
Vincent Herring was mentioned; for me, this performance - with a rhythm section plus strings - lives up to the song's title. In the city where I live, some great bebop is played in dives (which the music transcends). But sometimes listeners and performers really need the right performance space - not entirely sure what that is, though.
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08-30-2015 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dimrun
Improvisation is “working and reworking” material over and over again.
I think, improv is about hearing what is going to fit in a musical situation. This improv will be based on what you know and have practiced. Hence, improv is about using a “working and reworking” method.
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A good test to apply. Listen to the head (tune) and then compare that to the following solos.
Nine times out of ten the solos are nowhere as interesting as the tune. They often make no reference to the tune and are nothing to do with the original tune. The players will use the same ideas (devices) on every tune. So that if you edit out the tune it all sounds the same to the audience apart from tempo or the groove. This is tedious for the listener but probably good fun for the player ripping out all of his (and it usually is a his) licks.
The greats are different. The solos are as good or better than the tune and have the power to move people. The solo is an appropriate piece of 'music' for the moment. They are however rare beasts indeed.
In the classical world only fine players survive the selection process to become a performer. If your mediocre you become a teacher or amateur or take up accountancy. Only the very best of the best get up and perform for money. That's how it should be.
The jazz world has no such process. Result.............. the many, many rubbish gigs I've stupidly paid to listen to.
Martin Taylor has been accused (by the Jazz police) of not improvising his pieces and that he therefore shouldn't call himself a jazz musician. I've heard several big hitters say this independently. (Now I don't want to upset any of the readers here who have a delicate disposition and find certain words just too horrific to hear) The people who say these things are..........f......ools.
What is wrong with pre composing ideas to fit the tune? Too much hard work or not enough talent / ideas I suspect.
No one's been abusive yet!.......... Come on guys are you asleep or something?
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
Yes but J S Bach would improvise to amuse his friends or small gatherings. It was a party trick.
His music performed on stage was mostly unimprovised and finished.
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Martin Taylor's solo guitar sounds like an orchestra. I use that reference describe playing that has intricate movement and isn't wholly concerned with "making the changes" per say.
What gets me in a rut is the guys and gals that play the same way no matter what band they play with or instrumentation or what have you. In a group, you have to listen. I know that I really know a tune if I can sing the bass movement, sing the arpeggios, sing the melody, sing the guide tones and then play it on my guitar. But when I play with people, I try to listen to what they are feeding me. It makes playing more fun, less predictable. And I have my pet licks as well. If you always play it exactly the same, than what is the point of performing it in a group? Play it as a solo piece, nothing wrong with that, cause it's how you hear it. It's not how the band communicated it to you.
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And I love "classical" music. We should start a thread called: what we learned by listening to classical music and how can we apply it to jazz. I think Hank Jones said that when he is at home, he JUST listens to classical music and it helps inform him of melodic development and motivic development.
I recently got into Samuel Berber. Wow, his stuff is powerful, no?
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Yes the Adagio for Strings comes to mind. A favorite of Grace Kelly, FWIW. (my dear departed Dad told me that. I believe that Grace may have been a favorite of his, although he never would have admitted to such a thing).
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The Adagio, I like using that theme as a diminished motif. It's beautifully haunting, ever hear it performed by a chorus?
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When I was much younger I used to play computer games. I heard this on the opening to a space strategy game called Homeworld, it stuck with me ever since:
As amazing as the original is, with voices it sound even more powerful. Shesh, it makes the hair stand on my whole body.
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Or Mozart, courtesy of driving around with my pops when I was still in a child's seat...
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I lost so much when I confined myself to just listening to jazz in college and high school, there's so much great music to digest out there.
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Or Phillip Glass. It messes with my mind and my core (in an inexplicably beautiful way) when I listen to him:
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Why is improvising so hard to believe. It's not magic. JS Bach's skill as an improviser is well documented and was far more than a "party trick". I'm sure he improvised quite a bit during services just like modern organists have to. If a processional takes longer than they planned they have to keep playing something and a lot of the incidental music is just improvised. I've also heard modern musicians improvise counterpoint so it's not impossible it just takes work.
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Originally Posted by jasonc
This is true. Actually all composers have to be improvisers if you think about it. You start with nothing and improvise ideas that are new or variations. The difference is that they edit out the poor quality stuff and knock the piece into shape for a performance. Each section of the performance deeply considered and moods, keys, tempo varied.
Painters will often repaint a piece over and over until they think it's good enough for the public.
Writers would never allow the public to see their first drafts never mind expecting to get paid for it.
Someone said above that jazz people have to be patient and wait for those magic gigs that do 'happen.'
Unfortunately I've lost patience and I only spend my cash on gigs that I am sure of knowing what to expect from the players. That's a shame.
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do you see top acts? Do you go to Montreux for example?
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The question of improvisation. It's stupid really. There's a mis-comprehension. I think some people expect real improvisation means you invent music all over again. It doesn't. You bring all the qualities, knowledge and experience you have. It's always reordered, reconstituted, rearranged. You MUST have to play what you KNOW. The trick is to KNOW a lot.
The other trick is to be creative. But what happens, that I've seen, is people who can't do criticize those who can.
Improv is coming up with spontaneous new by rearranging what one knows. It's not a parlor trick.
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Didn't they reissue that recently? Originally Posted by Irez87
The Barber adagio was originally written for string quartet. I like that version best, although the vocal version is also great. It's a really good piece of music, very tightly written from a very simple motif yet with this tremendous sense for development.
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Improvisation
I don't think it's at all easy to talk about improvisation. Improvisation is basically a catch all term that covers any compositional process that is not written down. It's an inexact word...
While we have improvising on the spur of the moment, it's also quite common with groups and work shops to work on devised composition, where improvised material is shaped into performance, but at no point is a score actually used. In this case it would be counter to the ethos of the group to just improvise freely. So there is an element of improvisation that is group composition. We really see this in bands like the early Basie orchestra that had no parts, but would work out the arrangement and then stick to it.
I have also been part of a similar process for modern jazz and 'free' improv groups. It's fair to say this is a pretty common approach for many bands, where we are not necessarily working from a pre written arrangement, although one can always put it in writing as aide memoir later on (in which case, whose name goes on the composer credit?)
Of course there is a degree of freedom involved with soloing, but in the big band era it became common practice for performers to improvise a great solo in the studio and then be required to learn the solo and play it the same every night. This was true for many of the big band era players and seems to be the case with all-stars era Louis Armstrong. It is also common for rock guitarists - rock players generally reference part of a recorded solo and partially improvise it, or play the whole thing verbatim.
Many jazzers have in fact used the 'devised composition' approach for their soloing, including (I believe) Oscar Peterson, Joe Henderson and Martin Taylor. Miles Davis sacked George Coleman for practising his solos. Chick Corea advises improvisors to write out the first chorus of their solos. So, there's a spectrum of approaches.
Pure improvisation - playing on the spur of the moment can lead to inconsistency of performance - Sonny Rollins, a true improviser, was well known for having good nights and bad nights during much of his career. He, and his fans, were willing to go along with that. For others, it's easy to see why the demands of being 'on' every night might encourage them to adopt an element of composition in their playing.
EDIT: just wanted to add that in the classical world, the roles of performer and composer are very demarcated now. In jazz, we have a mixture - people can be a bit of a composer, or a lot of a composer, or mostly an improvisor, or both. In terms of talking about I think it's easy to overlook that there are loads of things in between.... Also Mozart's composition, say, seems on the level of pure improvisation. He prepared himself to be able to make music on the spur of the moment, whether to write it down in one draft or improvise it at the piano. Totally different approach to Beethoven...Last edited by christianm77; 08-31-2015 at 06:26 AM.
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Getting into lute, it seems like improvising is a big part - whether improvising ornaments on melodies, divisions (running melody lines) on a ground (bass line), or realising continuo (chords from a bass). Originally Posted by jasonc
In the latter case, you have to make serious consideration of the voice leading (no parallel fifths or octaves, correct preparation and resolution of dissonance) and we can start to take steps towards improvising simple counterpoint. I can see how a through knowledge of species counterpoint could come together with the continuo system help you improvise melodies over a written bass line, or a bass line to a melody, but being able to improvise multi line counterpoint - wow! Even improvising a counter melody with a melody and a written bass line would require careful consideration of both - but, people do seem to be able to develop this skill and beyond....
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08-31-2015, 06:49 AM #45destinytot Guest Originally Posted by christianm77
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Platoon!
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I knew I had heard that before. Originally Posted by Irez87
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Berber's music sounded like it was always meant for the movies (in the best possible way).
Listen to this:
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Since my threads randomly gain traction, someone should start a thread on the cross over of classical ideas in jazz and the potential of classical concepts applied to jazz improv. Like set theory... learned that one today, I mean I learned what it is. Really deep stuff.
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First of all, great post. I didn't know about the different schools of thought regarding improvisation among legendary jazz performers. Please explain what you mean by "devised composition". Originally Posted by christianm77
I found it surprising that Chick Corea would encourage players to write out their first choruses, as listening to his trio work in the early 70's, it sounds as though his music was as freshly improvised as any of the period.
I also ask that you write a little more about the contrast between Mozart and Beethoven's process. I wasn't aware that one relied more heavily of spur of the moment inspiration than the other.
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