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Been meaning to shed some common subs like the ones for G7 listed below. Leaving out the often used ii (before the V), we have V7s a min 3rd apart as well as the V7 built on the bVI.
Also the 3 to 9 version of the above (m7b5), again all a m3rd apart as well as one based on the bVI.
Would you guys use all these? Are there some you don't like as much as others?
G7- G B D F
Bb7- Bb D F Ab ( #9 b9)
Db7- Db F Ab B (b5 b9) ........... Eb7 Eb G Bb Db (b13, b5, #9)
E7- E G# B D (13 b9)
Bm7b5- B D F A (9)
Dm7b5- D F Ab C (b9 11)
Fm7b5- F Ab B D# (b9 b13)............. Gm7b5 G Bb Db F (b5 #9)
Abm7b5- Ab B D F# (b9 #7)Last edited by princeplanet; 08-07-2015 at 11:57 AM.
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08-06-2015 01:30 PM
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Jeb Patton taught me this sub:
over a G7 play Abm6
Ab b9
B 3
Eb b13
F b7
I think that might work better than the Abm7 as a full minor 7th, the #7 needs special treatment. I would play the #7 as part of a #iv #VII7 progression.
i.e. a F#m7 to B7 over the traditional Dm7 to G7 in Cmajor
I like the other subs. Just don;t get me started on the Subway substitution... not worth it. Make yer own sangwich!
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Yeah, Abm6 is the same as Fm7b5, which is my favourite of the bunch. I agree that Abm7b5 is the hardest to make work, well, for me anyway... I'm sure it gets used though, I don't mind a #7 against a Dom 7.
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Anyone else?
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A Major triad. Gives you a G13#11,9. I suppose you could make it an A7 since you're 7-izing (inventing words here) everything. Though I usually prefer to treat it as an A(add2) arpeggio since that gives you the 3rd of the G chord.
Db minor gives a 13#11b9
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Viable G7 note collection:
G B Db/D/D# F Ab/A/A# C/C# E/Eb
C is sus4 or 11, a common chordal sound in a dominant context.
Only note missing is F#, the leading to G, which makes it an excellent component of an approach chord to G7.
There is a glut of possibility to color the various shades of G7 function.
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Jordan mentioned Db minor (13#11b9) and Ab minor has been accounted for within Fm7b5 but there's also Bb minor (7#11#9).
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Here are a few altered dominants formed by incorporating triads:
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So, some of you seem to be suggesting you prefer superimposing triads as opposed to tetrads. What's the main reason? Easier to handle? Or do you like the less cluttered sound?
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If we define altered dominants as derived from the note collection then our choices are more limited.
A collection of triads and other 3 note structures that each address some aspects of 7th chord alteration:
G+ … Gmab5 … Gm … Gdim
Abm … Abdim … Absus
A … A+ … Amab5
Bb … Bbmab5 … Bbm … Bbdim … Bbsus
B+ … Bmab5 … Bdim
Db … Db+ … Dbmab5 … Dbm ... Dbdim … Dbsus
Ddim
Eb … Eb+ … Ebmab5 … Ebsus
E … Emab5 … Edim
F+ … Fdim
The Brett Willmott book "Complete Book of Harmony Theory and Voicing" does an excellent job detailing 4 note superimposition to create extended chords of every flavor.
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Strewth! You might as well say any triad that doesn't contain an F# !
Originally Posted by bako
I know some of you guys eat this stuff for breakfast, but at this stage I'm happy to choose only a handful of my favourite sounding pitch collections over Dominants, and practice making them work. Nice to have some extra ideas to try though, so cheers!Last edited by princeplanet; 08-11-2015 at 09:16 AM.
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Yeah I prefer triads because this is a big part of how I approach all chords...not just dominants. I use triads as a way to explore chords harmonically and melodically. To my ear, playing some type of substitute dominant chord just doesn't usually sound melodic. It just sounds like someone is superimposing a chord. Which has it's place. But for me, I'm more focused on maintaining a level of melodicism in my lines.
Likewise, JUST using a triad has a similar sound to my ear. It's not quite enough to make it seem 'real'. I do usually add a 4th, and even 5th note sometimes. But it's rarely the b7 of the triad. I want to use the 4th note to almost mask the fact that I'm playing a triad. I want my lines to have the simplicity that comes with utilizing triads, but with just enough spice that you would never guess that's what I was up to. To me, the 7th chord arpeggio doesn't offer that.
I will use it at times...but it's just not my preferred starting point. Triads are just where it's at for me these days. Hard to find anything else that matches their simplicity and perfection in my ear.
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you might be better off understanding dodecaphonics as opposed to memorizing very specific chord-subs.
see this lesson here:
Sheets of Sound Lessons Page
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I'm interested in exploring harmony from both macro and micro perspectives.
Lately my focus is on intervals which is the smallest harmonic building block beyond a single note.
So if the task is to address G7#9 in 2 notes, what are the options?
A# is the given. B A# is the clearest 2 note statement of the chord.
Part of the beauty of this approach, is the ear training aspect of hearing the dyad in a context
even with key elements missing.
D# A# on the surface is a perfect 5th but in a G7 moment, it functions as #5 #9.
If I need to temporarily add a B note to hear it that way, I will do so but then remove it
and try to retain the sound.
Expanding from 2 notes to 3 or more, what influence does each new interval bring.
What about interval pairs? Etc.
Sorry about that. My long list did also exclude C as well.Strewth! You might as well say any triad that doesn't contain an F# !
Last edited by bako; 08-11-2015 at 01:23 PM.
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For dominant chords, I actually separate them out from regular dominants and sus chords...I treat them as 2 different categories. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Strewth! You might as well say any triad that doesn't contain an F# !
So for me, I take the C and F# note out. Any triad that can be found using the remaining 10 notes is fair game.
I basically go through each chord category (Major, minor, dominant, sus, minMaj, diminished, etc) and find every note that I think sounds beautiful and harmonious with it (even in a 'tense' or 'dissonant' type of way), and then go through and find all the triads that I can build with it.
Which then get used for chord and scale construction.
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if you like minor 6th then try Barry Harris method
how about quartal voicings on dominants?
ambichords?
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Dm7b5 over G7 from my list above sounds kinda cool to my ears... Originally Posted by bako
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Sure, all important stuff, but I was using the above listed pitch groups as soloing material. Does the Barry Harris method regarding his dim6th chord scales (where every 2nd chord is a dim connecting chord) offer any ideas regarding soloing options? Originally Posted by jazz4ever
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I already knew of the relationship to Ab dim and the whole "Equal Division of the Octave" thing, but expanding things out like you do in that explanation has been really enlightening. Not just because it now makes me think G13, Bb13, Db13 and E13, but of any triad or tetrad from each chord's key. Originally Posted by jzucker
I also note that all 12 tones are encapsulated in this matrix - there are no "avoid" notes....
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Dm7b5/G7 - april in paris
it offers ideas WRT "Subs that create Alt doms..." Originally Posted by princeplanet
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care to expand? Originally Posted by jazz4ever
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there are different ways to apply it. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Since you mentioned pluralities of m6 chords, it seems like this would be good to check out.
for dominant chords you can sub with two minor 6th diminished scales and two major 6th diminished scales.
These are related to a single diminished chord.
for dominant:
minor 6th dim on these degrees: b2 5
major 6th dim on these degrees: b7 3
If you work it out, these scales are using the same set of dim notes.
One of the strengths is taking advantage of the pluralities of 6th chords and diminished chords.
In that way, the method is partially a visualization thing and not necessarily going to give you new subs
if that was the only feature.
But there's a lot to that regardless.
In addition there are "hybrid subs":
e.g. on a minor 6th "borrowing" 1 or 2 tones from the related diminished
The "borrowing from diminished" gives a method for voice leading (which is another aspect of the method)
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