Motivic Improvisation vs Playing the Changes

[jordanklemons]

So I just filmed this short video in response to another thread, and I thought it might be worth starting an entire different thread to bring up this idea.

I know we all often talking about playing the changes. Which is an important ability in the jazz idiom.

But there's a lot more that makes a great improvisor. At least in my ear.

I have a few things I enjoy hearing. I like improvisors who hold onto a single motif and mutate it through the changes. I also like hearing improvisors who utilize the melodic content of the tune...heavily.

I have a few different ways I work on this stuff. One such way is what I brought up in a different thread that I thought I would set up a new conversation around.

I'll take a tune I'm working on and improvise through the changes starting with a simple motif. Usually a 2-note idea. I'll hold onto that idea until it feels like it's ready to move somewhere else. I will (try to) hold onto that motif until I'm ready to move on...when I let go of that motif, I try to turn whatever the next idea is into the next motif and hold onto that one. And so on.

I filmed this using Giant Steps because of the thread it was originally in response to. I haven't been shedding it that much lately, and it was a first take...so there's a few bumps...and I was taking it slow. But here's what I'm talking about.

Anybody ever try this game? Or anything else to break away from just running scales and 'playing the changes'?

[nick1994]

it looks like a good exercise, i'll give it a try later. You could then put various restrictions, like make the motif last for 8 bars, 4 bars, 5 or 3 bars or maybe use intervallic restrictions like only using 4ths or use harmonic restrictions like only using 9ths and 13ths, but then again you don't want to complicate things too much.

[vintagelove]

By all means a valuable ability, but does that sound like the music you hear in your head? If so great!!!

I might use a motif a couple times, but to move it through every change in a tune, not in a practice situation, would bore me to death. I like fast, long, constantly developing lines. I'm sure that bores some people to death....

fwiw, I think you had a good sense of when to let go and start a new motif.

[jordanklemons]

Yeah Nick...I do more limited, restricted stuff sometimes. Mostly intervallic like you mentioned...or rhythmic. Though I only do that when I'm in a weird mood. Which happens sometimes. But usually I try and keep it more natural and musical...whatever happens happens type thing.

I've never tried the x number of bar thing. I'm not sure how that would work. I'd have to think about that a bit. Could be interesting game to play.

A drummer buddy of mine used to study with Ari Hoenig, and he once told me about a game Ari made him play. He'd practice soloing over an AABA form. The game was to come up with an idea, a motif, to play over the first 8 bar 'A' section. Then repeat it verbatim for the second A section. Then change it up and do something completely different for the B section. But then be able to go back and play the exact same idea for the last 'A' again. It takes a lot of memory and focus to remember what you played 8 bars ago when you're trying to do something else.

But I like that idea. And it could be an interesting 'next step' to what you're talking about. Like have a 4 bar idea and be able to hold onto it and mutate it through the changes. Then at the bridge shift into a new motif. And then during the last 8 bars, go back to the original motif again.

I don't know.

Let me know how it goes. Especially if you try this x number of bar thing. I might give it a shot when I'm a little less tired and delirious.

[jordanklemons]

I might use a motif a couple times, but to move it through every change in a tune, not in a practice situation, would bore me to death.

This is a game I play during my practice. An exercise I use to help build some very particular types of 'muscles'...if you will.

[jordanklemons]

Vintagelove...this is the most recent recording I have of me performing Giant Steps live with a group. It's probably about 4 or 5 years old. And it was before I started practicing ideas like this. But you can hear that I was already interested in the motivic development. I just wasn't as strong at it as I wanted to be...hence why I do practices like this.

[Jonah]

Great playing, great ideas... as usually)))

Actually when I try to play - all I do is trying to play melodies and motives... so let's look from pov that we're already out of pure 'scale' or'ply through changes' concept...

Let me add some general specualations to your practical sample

Motivic development to great extent was used in classical music - especially from post-Beethoven era..
We could check this as the smost obvious sample

But classical music had also functional tonality that gives very complex harmonic structure that somehow compensates monotonous motive repetition.

In modern music motivic development also became important tool since harmonic means lost their power... the most intersting case is Morton Feldman...
Here's a piece that to me shows fantastic result where he uses purely motivic development but at the same time it is real deep soulful music...
And here we have motivic development in itself as a tool to create complex musical structure without support of harmonic scheme...

motive becomes a kind of molecule from which composer drags out other motives they get into relations and make melodic lines and at the same time keep the quality of relative origin - they're kind of always ready to swirl back to it's original molecule...

[grahambop]

This is a game I play during my practice. An exercise I use to help build some very particular types of 'muscles'...if you will.

I think this is a great idea. I play long lines a fair bit, so I use this idea to try and bring in some contrast, i.e. short phrases and repetition, to break up the long lines. Especially as guitarists who can play long lines have a tendency to do it at length, since we don't have to stop for breath like a horn player. Can get a bit relentless if you're not careful.

Jim Hall is probably the best example of someone who uses this 'motif' approach very creatively in actual solos.

[destinytot]

Thanks for posting this great video. What a wonderful start to the day!

Personally, I'm half-guessing the execution of the limited vocabulary I've managed to pick up, but I hear movement clearly enough to exercise some control over its application. Awareness makes possible the choice of what movement to 'allow' - and under which circumstances: "So you can make the changes...what now?"

I have a few things I enjoy hearing. I like improvisors who hold onto a single motif and mutate it through the changes. I also like hearing improvisors who utilize the melodic content of the tune...heavily.

You express this well, and I think I get it. One of most beautiful sounds available on guitar is a single note, held static or repeated/reiterated rhythmically, over moving harmony. The motif idea really appeals to me, and I'll be following this thread with interest. Thanks again, Jordan.

[TH]

I like what Jonah had to say. There are players out there who have an obvious command of scales and arpeggios and use them as a given to construct melodic solos based on ideas stated or suggested by what came before. They often show a real sense of architecture in rhythm, melody and overall structure. I hear this a lot in Jim Hall, Sonny Rollins, Mick Goodrick... lots more. There's a sense of patient development that comes from needing to construct phrases from a developmental direction on small structures.
I like your exercise. Good ear training too. There was a thread not to long ago about motivic development. It's good to see this topic explored. Thanks for posting.
David

Sonny's working with one note, then two, then developing a solo that comes back to the reference note. And always tying it together with rhythmic motiv.

[AlsoRan]

When I first saw the thread I though you were talking about repeating a motif in the manner that Pat Martino does it. But, after viewing the video, I see you developed it and played with it. It sounded to my ears, like some of the humming I would hear older men doing as a child or similar to somebody imitating a nice horn solo.

I liked it, and you made it seem so simple and relaxed. I can see many uses for that kind of soloing. Your example was playful.

[jordanklemons]

Thanks for all the compliments guys! Too kind!

It's so funny to see the examples and thoughts everyone's chiming in with. Jonah, Beethoven's 5th was a profoundly influential piece for my growth. It was the first time I'd ever (knowingly) heard a composer hold onto an idea like that. I still to this day get up and sing that to my students when I'm trying to explain to them what a motif is. Good ol' Luddy B! Boy knew what he was doing! The entire first minute of that piece is essentially a 2 note pattern. And so gorgeous.

And TruthHertz, Sonny's St. Thomas was the jazz version of that for me. The first time I ever heard someone improvising like that. I'm sure I'd heard others do it. But the way Sonny does it is so clear and refined. He's so unbelievably patient and obvious, holding onto 2 note patterns seemingly forever before letting anything else happen.

And yes...Jim Hall is one of my guitar heroes, so a lot of this comes from him. No doubt about that. He was a master of this.

Nice trumpet piece btw Jonah. Thanks for sharing it. Really thematic! It's hard to play single note lines by yourself with no band and make it sound like a piece of music. Using a motif seems like a good way to immediately create intention and musical integrity.

[jordanklemons]

When I first saw the thread I though you were talking about repeating a motif in the manner that Pat Martino does it. But, after viewing the video, I see you developed it and played with it. It sounded to my ears, like some of the humming I would hear older men doing as a child or similar to somebody imitating a nice horn solo.

I liked it, and you made it seem so simple and relaxed. I can see many uses for that kind of soloing. Your example was playful.

I think repeating the motif exactly and not allowing it to develop is a whole other level to this. Not necessarily above or below type of level, just maybe parallel. Though for me it would be harder. It's something I should spend more time on.

I tend to get bored easily. If I hear someone playing and it sounds random and meandering, and there's nothing happening to grab me and suck me in, my attention span tends to go elsewhere. Which is probably why I like motivic development. It keeps me engaged.

But I also get too bored too quickly with the basic motif and start to develop it because it's fun and my mind goes there. But I'd like to be better at having more patience and allowing things to develop at a more natural pace to what the music wants. I often feel like I'm not really allowing the music to dictate how and when things evolve...like I'm in the driver seat.

That's one of the muscles I'm trying to strengthen with this type of practicing. To learn to be more patient and responsive to what the music wants.

[grahambop]

I got Jerry Bergonzi's jazz improvisation DVDs and he covers some stuff similar to this. He takes a 'shape' i.e. a sequence of 4 notes, it might be as simple as 'up-up-down'. Then you play it all the way through a tune, modifying it to fit. Gradually he applies all sorts of permutations/restrictions to this, e.g. you can vary the intervals between the notes but you keep the rhythm the same, or you vary the rhythm and always start from the 5th of the chord, or the 9th, or whatever, then you add an approach note or enclosure to the shape, and so on.

He spends a lot of time on this, with one of his pupils playing these 'shapes' on the sax while he accompanies on the piano, on various tunes.

What's striking is that eventually, when he mixes up all these methods, it sounds like the guy is playing a fully-fledged solo. It's a great way of generating lots of new ideas from such a simple premise.

[jordanklemons]

That's interesting Graham.

When you say 'up-up-down'...do you just mean diatonically? Using any intervals we want?

Like over a CMaj7 it could be

C-D-E-D
C-E-F-E
C-E-G-E
C-A-B-G

And on and on and on?

[grahambop]

That's interesting Graham.

When you say 'up-up-down'...do you just mean diatonically? Using any intervals we want?

Like over a CMaj7 it could be

C-D-E-D
C-E-F-E
C-E-G-E
C-A-B-G

And on and on and on?

Yes I think so. I'll have to watch it again.

But one of Jerry's favourite answers to the pupil's questions is 'all of the above'! In other words, try it anyway you like.

[jordanklemons]

Haha...good answer.

Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were describing.

[grahambop]

Haha...good answer.

Just wanted to make sure I understood what you were describing.

I'll check it out and see if I can get some examples from the DVD.

[JensL]

Anybody ever try this game? Or anything else to break away from just running scales and 'playing the changes'?

Nice playing in the video!

I do this sort of stuff quite a lot and a few other similar things to not only play 8th note lines all the time. I think it's a very important part of becoming able to react not only to what other people play but also what you are playing yourself and therefore making a solo a more coherent whole (hopefully anyway..)

Jens

[vintagelove]

Thanks for all the compliments guys! Too kind!

It's so funny to see the examples and thoughts everyone's chiming in with. Jonah, Beethoven's 5th was a profoundly influential piece for my growth. It was the first time I'd ever (knowingly) heard a composer hold onto an idea like that. I still to this day get up and sing that to my students when I'm trying to explain to them what a motif is. Good ol' Luddy B! Boy knew what he was doing! The entire first minute of that piece is essentially a 2 note pattern. And so gorgeous.

And TruthHertz, Sonny's St. Thomas was the jazz version of that for me. The first time I ever heard someone improvising like that. I'm sure I'd heard others do it. But the way Sonny does it is so clear and refined. He's so unbelievably patient and obvious, holding onto 2 note patterns seemingly forever before letting anything else happen.

And yes...Jim Hall is one of my guitar heroes, so a lot of this comes from him. No doubt about that. He was a master of this.

Nice trumpet piece btw Jonah. Thanks for sharing it. Really thematic! It's hard to play single note lines by yourself with no band and make it sound like a piece of music. Using a motif seems like a good way to immediately create intention and musical integrity.

The 7th symphony 2nd movement (the 9th as well) are great examples of this as well. Something perhaps for you to strive for (if you like it). Beethoven NEVER just gives it to you, he makes you wait for it. He will state the theme, fiddle with it a bit, here it comes again, you think, ok this will be it... He trails off on a different path....

Eventually by the (what feels like) the umpteenth time, he finally gives you the theme in its massive final form and it just knocks you out!!!

Again, it's not my bag, so take me 2 cents on the subject with a grain of salt.

Im not sure you could prolong it in a jazz setting quite as long as Beethoven (by the 7th chorus you finally get there....), however if you could "microtize"? That concept, it would be pretty bitchen!!!

[jordanklemons]

Nice playing in the video!

I do this sort of stuff quite a lot and a few other similar things to not only play 8th note lines all the time.

Hey Jens. Thanks! If you don't mind me asking...would you mind sharing some of the other similar things you do?

[jordanklemons]

Yeah man. There were some nice moments in there!

But I agree. It is tough. That's why I said a few times in this thread, it's working on some very particular 'muscles'. If we're not used to using those muscles, they're going to have a hard time functioning when we want them.

Which is why when I first started this stuff, I took everything super slow and pretty much stuck to the 2-note motives as strictly as possible. Because I'm just not that naturally good at it. But it got easier for me over time. I still work at it.

I will say that I've found it much better and more beneficial to practice this with a tune that you have completely memorized. It looks like you've got the chart in front of you? It might be worth trying this on a tune that you don't need to read.

It just takes so much concentration and focus, and if part of our minds are being used to follow a visual cue, it seems like that's going to cause problems. But maybe that's just me...like I said, I'm not naturally gifted in this way like other people might be. I have certain natural strengths. But this is something I have to really focus and work on patiently.

[nick1994]

I wasn't reading a chart, it's a bach chorale I was practicing before. I know the tune but it's been a while since practicing it so it was rusty. I'm going to keep at this exercise though.

[jordanklemons]

Ah. My b. I just saw the music at the bottom of the screen, so I assumed.

Which Bach piece are you working on? I've finally found the motivation to go back to his violin sonatas and partitas. Ugh...so challenging but soooooo beautiful.

[nick1994]

I'm actually working on a chorale puer natus in Bethlehem as well as sonata no.1 in g minor both of which are doing a number on my technique. the chorale is difficult because the voicings are written for piano so it's taking me time to figure it out on guitar.