George Benson's approach to playing chord changes

[Tag101]

Where should I look for the most amazing stuff? Would be really interested in hearing it.

He's got to be one of the most talented musicians in history.

The best stuff I have heard was given to friends from GB himself. For 30 years I have been hoping and thinking some of it would be released, but it never has. Simply awful IMO. What I feel is some of, if not the greatest jazz guitar playing ever, totally unavailable. I was able to BEG and get a few tunes, but the quality is horrid. I did post one of them years ago, and I may still have it converted from the original cassette somewhere. I think I have a funk one I got from Richard B years ago with GB sitting in with some band somewhere. Ill see if i can find it.

[Tag101]

Check this out to the end. Some band doing a funky vamp with GB sitting in.

MP3 Player SoundClick

[MarkRhodes]

Some great lines there. Thanks. I'd never heard that.

[ecj]

Check this out to the end. Some band doing a funky vamp with GB sitting in.

MP3 Player SoundClick

So fluid!

I think Benson understands that most listeners aren't really interested in this kind of thing, and he's always reined himself in on the records to just make some short and tasty.

It's fun finding the bootlegs where he just goes nuts. He's one of a very small handful of guitar players who seems to be able to keep up with any players, tempo or setting in the jazz scene.

[vhollund]

Try thinking of ATTYA as not in Ab or F-....

Think of the Ab and it's relative Min F- as bVI ... so the 1st four bars are all more of a sub dom. or in this Dominant approach to Tonic, a prep for Dom... or just Dominant... then the Db becomes bII or sub type of Dominant function to the Tonic ... Cmaj..... if your having trouble hearing use a few blue notes to teach your ears or break them out of one way of hearing.

So five bars of (sub) Dominant to Dominant bar 6 to Tonic... "C". After you try this a little stop on the "C". now play Abmaj7 or F-.... does it sound like a tonic...

So any way same thing next 8 bars... only Gmaj becomes the tonic.

When you get to bars 17 through 24... 17 -20 are Gmaj. and really F#-7b5 to B7 is generally just a typical approach to the relative Min. but instead of Emin. we get Emaj7... either through parallel method or modal interchange etc...

Same approach with last 12 bars. Now you might even think of the tune as really in Gmaj. with the now Cmaj section just a standard IV chord type of function area... and again Abmaj and F- just being part of that (sub) Dominant function area.


If nothing else... In general...guitarist might open ears to being able to approach a tune differently.... it get pretty boring from standard harmonic approach. I'll still post something... I'm somewhat lazy.

Hey thanks for this perspective,
This sure is alot of fun
So what do you do, to suggest the C tonality ?
It works easiest as Cm for me

I need more time to mess with it but when trying I made it work playing
Bb7 on Fm7 ,
Dbmaj7 (+ Cminor) on Bbm7
G7 on E7
Cm on Ab
Cm + Dbmaj
G7
CMaj7

[christianm77]

So the V I or simple view of playing isn't just the literal V I etc... You have targets.... which is like your One chord... and you create a V chords which wants to resolve to that One Chord.

For example in ATTYA you could take the first 6 bars and make them the V chord all resolving to Bars 7 and 8, the Cmaj chord. Then take the next 8 bars and do the same thing bars 9 - 14 all resolve to bars Gmaj, bars 15 and 16.

The next 8 bars are two shorter versions... A-7 D7 to Gmaj again, and then F#-7 B7alt to Emaj

Then a similar approach with last 12 bars... actually going to Ab.

So what your playing actually somewhat follows the form of the tune right Two 8 bars phrases of an "A", a "B" section that used the same organization but breaks the pattern then last "A" section which again breaks the pattern of the original "A"s and creates a end of tune.

Then you go micro and use the same approach within your bigger V I patterns, you still need to play the changes or some version of the implied changes...it's just how you use the changes organizationally.... just because a chord is a dom7th chord doesn't mean it has to have Dominant function.... same with all chords.

There is no real simple approach to playing through tunes where you can play and not really know what's going on...at least when playing Jazz, the changes are there because their part of the tune. You play simple.... that's what your going to sound like.

You can 'chunk' things or zoom in on things to any level of detail you want.

[Reg]

You can 'chunk' things or zoom in on things to any level of detail you want.

hey Christian... that is the point, Even when you play very straight which most do... your still just "chunking" things, or zooming in on things... your just choosing to play the obvious "chunks and Zooms". Even if you didn't play... it's still there, your just going through the motions... so why not be a little creative. Put yourself past just enjoying playing, again the obvious, and try improvising something you might not have already played a million times before. Or not, there is a RISK FACTOR...you can crash and burn... but it sure helps motivate improvement.

Hey Christian... not just picking on you... you just happen to bring up the point. I totally dig your playing... Comments are directed in general direction... most guitarist.

[Reg]

Man, there are a lot of ways to approach a tune! I see what you are saying above, but to my ears and playing it sounds a bit forced. I am sure that would change with a few hours of it. If you change the Eb7 to Eb-7 it sounds a bit better to my ears, and then the Abmaj7 to a dom, but the melody note is G on the Ebchord, so I like the dom7 sound to the Gmaj 7. With Dom tonic though, once you are hearing everything, you can play a Dom area over a tonic, or vice versa of course. The strength of the line is the only thing that matters at that point. Its getting there that all of this helps us with!

yea a bit forced is generally just from lack of usage, right.

It's really just a phrasing type of approach, and using changes as you want the phrase to use as compared to how the typical analysis of ATTYA somewhat prefab approach.

The micro aspects... Eb7 to Eb7#9, still can have your dominant function... your just choosing to use the "function" in a different manor. I mean all function is... is a motor to create harmonic movement. All the voicings and voice leading
are just realizations or how we choose to realize the function, the movement...

And I agree the strength of the line... what the line can imply etc... is what it's all about. When thinking of Dominant to Tonic in general terms... general harmonic movement, tension resolve... strong weak... as the macro level, the micro approaches have room for possibilities when improvising. It's just a different organizational usage of common practice.

Thanks for all your input in this thread... really cool.

[christianm77]

hey Christian... that is the point, Even when you play very straight which most do... your still just "chunking" things, or zooming in on things... your just choosing to play the obvious "chunks and Zooms". Even if you didn't play... it's still there, your just going through the motions... so why not be a little creative. Put yourself past just enjoying playing, again the obvious, and try improvising something you might not have already played a million times before. Or not, there is a RISK FACTOR...you can crash and burn... but it sure helps motivate improvement.

Hey Christian... not just picking on you... you just happen to bring up the point. I totally dig your playing... Comments are directed in general direction... most guitarist.

Yes, why not? It's good to have different ways of doing things. Keeps you alive. Thanks for the kind words :-)

[Tag101]

hey Christian... that is the point, Even when you play very straight which most do... your still just "chunking" things, or zooming in on things... your just choosing to play the obvious "chunks and Zooms". Even if you didn't play... it's still there, your just going through the motions... so why not be a little creative. Put yourself past just enjoying playing, again the obvious, and try improvising something you might not have already played a million times before. Or not, there is a RISK FACTOR...you can crash and burn... but it sure helps motivate improvement.

Hey Christian... not just picking on you... you just happen to bring up the point. I totally dig your playing... Comments are directed in general direction... most guitarist.

Good post! This is part of what is great about this concept. For sake of brevity, while just talking "in" tones, whether you play a I-VI-II-V-I as Ionian-Aeolian-Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian, or Group the I and VI and II and V, and play tonic, dominant, you are playing the same things. If the function of the chords are the same, its just a waste of mental energy to look at them differently, and your ear NEEDS to hear them as the same in the long run. It helps your ear to hear things like just playing blues lines over the entire progression when you want, which is part of what makes Wes, George, G.Green and Rodney Jones so great. The ability to mix pure blues in with jazz lines while still making every change at the speed of light. On the other hand, it allows you to kind of mechanically come up with all kinds of alternate changes to work through while practicing, and get them in your ear. Some you will like, some just will not appeal to you. Thats what makes us all different. Some people like the flat 5 and b9 the most, others like the #5 and #9. Some like sweet, some like sour.

[Tag101]

Bensons approach to playing changes. | The Gear Page

The above link is to an old Gear Page thread started by member "Tag". A couple of you guys may have even participated. It is very long- 667 posts I think, but it's as engaging as any jazz thread I've read anywhere, despite the inevitable clashing of heads. For those willing to read through most of it, what are your own thoughts?

Just a quick question. How did you stumble on that thread? Its so old I had no idea it was even around anymore! I am interested in how it came up. Thanks!

[Groyniad]

great thread!

its worth noticing - i think - that the 'in - out' or 'dominant - tonic' structure is like a sort of harmonic pulse. its a musical structure that's deeper even than the rhythm/harmony contrast. harmony is a moving forwards - and thats a time-thing.

and this forward harmonic movement goes on all the time - whether there is significant chord movement (what figures on a chord chart that is) happening or not. it goes on within any chord as well as between chords.

C maj for a bar - or a beat or half a beat etc. - has home/away; Cmaj/G7 (or Cmaj Dmin6; Cmaj Abmin6 etc. etc.) going on in it. that is, c maj moves into G7 etc. and back (or to a new chord) whether it is sounding for a bar or a beat; Dm7 moves into A7 or Bflat m6 etc. and back whether its sounding for a bar or a beat. you can bring out the 'in-out' structure of a single beat of music by playing 8th notes or 16th notes through it etc. etc.

for me, it was barry harris that got this idea into my head. his maj and min 6th diminished chord scales are not chord progressions - even in the sense that a diatonic chord scale is a sort of (abstract) chord progression. the 6th/dim; 6th/dim; 6th/dim pulse of those scales is a harmonic movement that is going on in any given phase of the music.

[Tag101]

great thread!

its worth noticing - i think - that the 'in - out' or 'dominant - tonic' structure is like a sort of harmonic pulse. its a musical structure that's deeper even than the rhythm/harmony contrast.

Thats it. When you listen to the very best players, totally blowing, like Jackie McLean, Benson, Kenny Garrett, Coltrane, Lee Morgan, Eric Alexander, Birelli Lagrene, Rodney Jones, the best of the best...You clearly hear that pulse, and its all at their command. Its a flow of In....out...in...out, and its all the tonic areas mixed together, and all the Dom areas mixed together. Its not scales. You may hear a bit of a scale here or there, but its not that at all. Its tensiooooonnnnnnnn.......release....teeeeension... .reaalllease,, Tension......................................RELEA SE!!! Thats really what you hear, and it can be all you hear sometimes if its background music. You cant make out the chords really or the melody...but you can hear that flow of tonic to dominant....in and out, and the whole band is following along... SO fine!!!!

[Breezin78]

...
It seems likely that GB is not doing any thinking when he plays. ...

Oh and +1 on the greatness of Dexter;-)

Hi Christian,

I've put a lot of hours into transcribing George's most challenging solos, things like Serbian Blue (my ears still hurt on that one...) Billie's Bounce live at Pori, Spain 'The Theme' live among others. Let me tell you, there's a lot of thinking going on behind his choice of lines, but it's happening very, very fast. One of the things that struck me about his lines and note choice is how rational things are, there's a reason for almost every single note he plays, believe it or not. Very very little could be identified as random notes.

One of the things that caught my eye once was his band mates talking about him - they mentioned that he was the hardest working musician they had every known. Sometimes after shows he would go back to his hotel room and practice some more.

In my book he's the greatest jazz bop guitar player of all time (just my view).

[Breezin78]

Tag,

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts from back in 2011. It's fun to see people trying to decipher George.

One thing he's said that seems so simple, is so true, and yet so hard to uncover is this saying of his:

"Everything Works!"

I can see how the cynical would say yeah that helps me a lot, :-) But he's right... harmonically almost anything can be made to work, via tension release, but it depends on where you start and how you navigate to the strong notes, rhythmically speaking. So much of George's genius is in his timing too, as many have observed.

I cracked up when I saw him talk about his father teaching him the chromatic scale, as he fingers up a scale "ba, ba, ba ba" "But Dad, what can you do with that?" "I realized he meant that every note is related to the root".

I see such beauty in that, not just musical truth but also a metaphysical reflection on Reality. Meaning that all eventually returns to the Root of all that is.

Peace,
Breezin78'

[Tag101]

Tag,

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts from back in 2011. It's fun to see people trying to decipher George.

One thing he's said that seems so simple, is so true, and yet so hard to uncover is this saying of his:

"Everything Works!"

I can see how the cynical would say yeah that helps me a lot, :-) But he's right... harmonically almost anything can be made to work, via tension release, but it depends on where you start and how you navigate to the strong notes, rhythmically speaking. So much of George's genius is in his timing too, as many have observed.

I cracked up when I saw him talk about his father teaching him the chromatic scale, as he fingers up a scale "ba, ba, ba ba" "But Dad, what can you do with that?" "I realized he meant that every note is related to the root".

I see such beauty in that, not just musical truth but also a metaphysical reflection on Reality. Meaning that all eventually returns to the Root of all that is.

Peace,
Breezin78'

Great posts Breezin. Thanks for the kind words, its really appreciated.......

I agree. Everything GB plays you can make sense of theoretically, but its not easy a lot of times.. He is a musical genius for sure. Years ago, I use to think as good as GB, Wes, Pat Martino and others are, surely there are LOTS of guys around the world that no one knows of, who are practicing hours a day, that are just as good or better. The internet has given us a way to check out almost everyone, in one way or another, and I have found I was wrong. There are NOT all kinds of guys who can play at that level. Some how or another, even back then, the best found their way to the top. What the internet has shown is how truly special these guys are. Once in a lifetime musicians, who are not only extremely gifted, but who put in the time and effort to develop those gifts and hone them the best they could. All of us listeners should be very thankful they did (and I believe most of us are) because of the enormous joy it has brought to our lives. Speaking for myself, I know that in the very lowest points I have gone through, their music has given me hope, and helped me hang on. Listening to guys like George who play with so much passion, feeling and emotion, somehow lifts me up spiritually, and keeps me hanging in there. I know many others who feel the same, and I am forever grateful.

[princeplanet]

Just a quick question. How did you stumble on that thread? Its so old I had no idea it was even around anymore! I am interested in how it came up. Thanks!

OK, well, I've had this Tonic vs Dominant notion in my head for a coupla years (I thought it was an original concept! ), but was reluctant to ask too many people about it because I think the times I've brought it up, it got shot down. The other day I decided to google "Everything is either Tonic or Dominant", and waded through a dozen or so pages until I came across the TGP thread, where I hit the jackpot!

Being able to say that the great GB subscribes to a similar concept, if true, certainly means that people will take this idea more seriously, than if I had posted a thread about it myself. Actually, I studied composition years back, and was quite taken with Schenkerian analysis, so I probably got the idea from there.... I think everyone can arrive at their own version of it, for me it's come to I6(maj7, maj9) vs viim7b5. I can file all my lines and devices under those 2 groups.

[West LA Jazz]

Hi Christian,

I've put a lot of hours into transcribing George's most challenging solos, things like Serbian Blue (my ears still hurt on that one...) Billie's Bounce live at Pori, Spain 'The Theme' live among others. Let me tell you, there's a lot of thinking going on behind his choice of lines, but it's happening very, very fast. One of the things that struck me about his lines and note choice is how rational things are, there's a reason for almost every single note he plays, believe it or not. Very very little could be identified as random notes.

One of the things that caught my eye once was his band mates talking about him - they mentioned that he was the hardest working musician they had every known. Sometimes after shows he would go back to his hotel room and practice some more.

In my book he's the greatest jazz bop guitar player of all time (just my view).

There is a section in Benson's solo on Jimmy Smith's "I'LL DRINK TO THAT" that is mind blowing. When I first heard it I was thunderstruck. I slowed it down and still was amazed. I guess all those years on the road playing with Brother Jack McDuff really taught him something.

PS: I bought Benson's "instructional" DVD years ago. Somebody else on this forum had the same thoughts I had back then. I thought he was just showing off. I couldn't make head or tails of what he was trying to tell me (on the fretboard) - the ideas flew by so fast. And then I went away for a couple of years and grew some as a player and I guess my hearing grew too. I watched the DVD again and man, it was like night and day. He's just an advanced player who found his way to mastering his instrument. I can't put it any other way.

Being mostly self taught, it seems like he picked up stuff (by ear) seemingly from everyone. I wasn't sure if he was serious when he said, he stopped teaching guitar when he realized that he was even retaining cool licks that his students played - he felt "bad" for taking their money. Another thing that stuck with me was him saying (in his autobio) that GENE AMMONS the sax player was a great source for a player to hear and feel how to play soulfully over chord changes. That was one from left field for me as I'd never really heard of Gene Ammons. I later found out that he had a huge discography and was the son of a pretty well known piano player.

Also in his autobio, he credits (and thanks) Jean Luc Ponty for teaching him the minor diminished scale ( I think is how he called the diminished runs he does). This was back when he was in his mid 20s. I think he has a strong ability to learn by ear very quickly. Again in his autobio, he talks about being on a studio date with an orchestra. They put some sheet music in front of him and he started to sweat bullets. And then the orchestra "made a mistake", They played through the music once. He says that's all he needed. And then they made a 2nd mistake of playing it again - he had it down cold. It's very obvious that he works like heck at his instrument and because of his fleet fingered technique it's can be difficult to see/hear the method to his madness on the fret board.

On his DVD he made a passing comment that I only understood after I revisited his DVD after getting batter at navigating the fretboard (thank you to all the self learning DVD teachers including Bob Conti at the top of the heap) - he said "I have so much under me now" that… he could deploy ideas at will and rephrase them on cue.

I think he owes a boat load of gratitude to his step father who built him his first guitar and fostered his love for music.

Great forum we have hear! Cheers.

[christianm77]

Hi Christian,

I've put a lot of hours into transcribing George's most challenging solos, things like Serbian Blue (my ears still hurt on that one...) Billie's Bounce live at Pori, Spain 'The Theme' live among others. Let me tell you, there's a lot of thinking going on behind his choice of lines, but it's happening very, very fast. One of the things that struck me about his lines and note choice is how rational things are, there's a reason for almost every single note he plays, believe it or not. Very very little could be identified as random notes.

One of the things that caught my eye once was his band mates talking about him - they mentioned that he was the hardest working musician they had every known. Sometimes after shows he would go back to his hotel room and practice some more.

In my book he's the greatest jazz bop guitar player of all time (just my view).

I think you misunderstand my meaning.

I can't know for sure what GB is or isn't thinking when playing (as I am not GB) but I would regard it as impossible to involve one's conscious mind in playing music on stage to that level. In fact in general thinking when performing is to be avoided in my experience. But as I say I am not GB, so I am going on what I have been taught, what musicians have said, and my own personal experiences.

The purpose of the hours and hours of practice is to get to that level of course - the internalisation of material for example, this may involve some kind of music theory somewhere along the line, such as the theory in the OP. So that's the thinking..

Furthermore it's possible that he's just got to the level where it doesn't matter what things are called. I have noticed that as the years pass, I find it a little bit hard to pin down what I am doing in terms of 'I did that and that' and I see that as a good thing (although it might just be my brain getting stupider). I imagine GB with years and years of experience and frightening natural talent may well have moved beyond the level of being able to explain what he does. But I might wrong of course.

[targuit]

I certainly agree with you on the notion that 'thinking' is not what is happening in the moment of performance so much as "reacting" like an athlete swinging at a baseball. In fact I noted that at one moment in George's The Art of Jazz Guitar video he comments on that directly. That is not to say that he cannot analyze the theory of what he is playing reflectively but that is more a matter of a musical reflex in performance. His playing is guided by his ears and his intention. Even a chromatic note can be resolved in a phrase, and that 'resolution' makes it ok. His intentionality is a link between his voice literally and his execution, as exemplified in his scat singing/ guitar playing ability.

This does not diminish the value of talking about jazz musical theory, but in the end the playing is the thing.

Someone mentioned the notion of there existing unsung guitar players of great virtuosity who remain nearly unknown.

Here is one name - Costa Lukacs, a Hungarian gypsy guitarist with great solo playing chops who reminds me a lot of George Benson. If you check out the few videos available on YT, you might see why I say that.

[christianm77]

I certainly agree with you on the notion that 'thinking' is not what is happening in the moment of performance so much as "reacting" like an athlete swinging at a baseball. In fact I noted that at one moment in George's The Art of Jazz Guitar video he comments on that directly. That is not to say that he cannot analyze the theory of what he is playing reflectively but that is more a matter of a musical reflex in performance. His playing is guided by his ears and his intention. Even a chromatic note can be resolved in a phrase, and that 'resolution' makes it ok. His intentionality is a link between his voice literally and his execution, as exemplified in his scat singing/ guitar playing ability.

This does not diminish the value of talking about jazz musical theory, but in the end the playing is the thing.

Someone mentioned the notion of there existing unsung guitar players of great virtuosity who remain nearly unknown.

Here is one name - Costa Lukacs, a Hungarian gypsy guitarist with great solo playing chops who reminds me a lot of George Benson. If you check out the few videos available on YT, you might see why I say that.

Of course not, you have to get to the point where the theory is not involved in the playing itself, but acts as a part of the process of preparing to play (if required.)

If that's not too convoluted a sentence ;-)

I always thought Birelli got close to Benson when playing his archtop.... Others may disagree... Anyway, the gypsy guys seem to love Benson!

[christianm77]

Also in his autobio, he credits (and thanks) Jean Luc Ponty for teaching him the minor diminished scale ( I think is how he called the diminished runs he does). This was back when he was in his mid 20s. I think he has a strong ability to learn by ear very quickly. Again in his autobio, he talks about being on a studio date with an orchestra. They put some sheet music in front of him and he started to sweat bullets. And then the orchestra "made a mistake", They played through the music once. He says that's all he needed. And then they made a 2nd mistake of playing it again - he had it down cold. It's very obvious that he works like heck at his instrument and because of his fleet fingered technique it's can be difficult to see/hear the method to his madness on the fret board.

Fantastic story. I hear similar things about Richard Bona, and other great musicians. Obviously, it easy to point and go 'MUSICAL GENIUS!' but there has to be something we can learn from as non-musical genii. Such as (obviously!) the preeminent importance of developing one's ear...

[jordanklemons]

I've found that different 'musical geniuses' have pretty differing views on this whole thinking thing. Some say they're not thinking. Others scoff at those that say that and will tell you if course they're all thinking. I've even heard one guy say that he doesn't like the sound of a player when it sounds like he's not thinking and just letting his fingers lead. He prefers to play (and listen to guys who play) where the intellect is very much in play.

To me it all seems like a personal taste type of issue.

I think it gets very confusing for music students. It falls into the pedagogical problem of the 'descriptive' / 'prescriptive' confusion. I've met a lot of musicians in my life who hear their musical hero say 'I don't think when I play'...and the student takes that to be a prescription for playing that way...when really it's more of a description of a particular state that musician goes into. It would be like if a hungry person watched someone through a window after gorging their self at a Thanksgiving feast. They might see that person burping a lot, reclining in their chair, and unbuttoning their pants. But no matter how many times the hungry person tries all these things out, it will never make him feel full.

As has been pointed out...Benson and all the other geniuses out there have put in crazy time and effort to their craft. Some of them may turn their thinking off, others may not....but it shouldn't be confused as anything more than a descriptive state of what they're experiencing.

I I loved reading that story about the guys in his band saying he went back to his hotel room after performing to keep practicing. Seems like we hear stories like that about all the greats. Very humanizing.

[Reg]

If you can't play while thinking about what your playing.... your not going to be able to play when not thinking about it.

[destinytot]

It would be like if a hungry person watched someone through a window after gorging their self at a Thanksgiving feast. They might see that person burping a lot, reclining in their chair, and unbuttoning their pants. But no matter how many times the hungry person tries all these things out, it will never make him feel full.

Ha! Love the pathetic image of the wistful watcher at the window, nose pressed against the pane... I'm reminded that envy can be empowering - "God Bless the Child", and all that jazz.