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Thanks Henry.
Anyways, to see if I can wrap this up and bring it full circle back to the OP....it may very well seem complex....but it really isn't. I mean really, it's a triad. What is complicated about a triad? Sure, the notation may seem complicated, and the posts may seem long and intellective, but we're talking about a triad. What's more simple than that?? The cool thing about all of this is that, when viewed this way, it allows us to play and think in VERY simple terms (triads) through very complex and tricky harmonic movements. I think it was Mingus who said something like, "Making the simple complicated is easy. Making the complicated simple is creativity." (paraphrased). Really that's what I'm talking about. How to make beautifully simple music, melodically driven, lyrical music that doesn't sound like patterns or running scales. And it can be used in simple situations or in crazy, modern, complicated situations. I see it as simplifying everything down to a triad...which is about the simplest building block we have in music. At least once we start talking about harmony.
The proof of its simplicity (if I needed any...which I don't because I can hear and feel it in my playing) is how quick and easy it is to teach my non-jazz musician, non guitar major students. Many of them come in and want to learn to improvise. I show them a scale, they memorize it...it sounds terrible. They're fuddling around. They aren't playing anything musical or melodic. It's just a mess of notes that make no sense. The best we can hope for at that point is that they're getting the 'right' notes into their fingers. Meaning the notes of the scale and none from outside the scale. Then they get frustrated because nothing sounds good. So I show them some scale patterns. Maybe we play 3rds through the scale. Or we play groupings of notes. Or we play diatonic triads. Or 7th chord arpeggios. They work on this stuff for months. Their playing slowly gets better. Months later they sound better, but everything still sounds very pattern oriented and lick based. Like a computer. And don't even get me started on teaching them licks!!! hahahaha
It can take years to get them to play a lyrical melody line. Anyone who teaches guitar will probably relate to this time line. I imagine.
On the flip side. This previous semester I started using some of this stuff with my students. And I kid you not, one girl went from knowing ZERO scales and never having improvised a note in her life to improvising beautiful melodies in under a month. Literally by the 3rd lesson she was playing $#!t that was getting ME excited as a musician. It was scary.
That's not me saying this way is 'better'. But for all those on the thread that feel this idea is complex...either I'm not explaining it clearly enough (which is more than possible), or you're getting thrown off by how complex it looks when typed out. I had several students utilizing this way of thinking this semester and could not believe how quickly they picked it up intellectually, and how quickly they were playing beautiful stuff. Everyone's welcome to view it how they wish. I can only speak from experience of using it as a musician myself and as using it as a teaching tool. To me, it doesn't get simpler than a triad. The 4th note is just there because triads are so simple that they get boring when they're all that's going on. So the 4th note helps create movement and tension.
Anyways...hopefully this sort of steers things back onto the tracks. If anyone else wants to share thoughts, ask questions, or share anything they noticed after giving it a shot on their own (if they chose to)...I would love to hear. If for no other reason than that this is the first thread I've ever started that's hit 2 pages, and I'd LOOOOOVE to make it to 3!!!! hahaha....but mostly because I love music. It's the best. And I could listen to it, play it, practice it, think about it, explore it, tinker with it, and talk about it all day.
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05-14-2015 03:22 PM
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As I was typing up my first response, I had this distinct feeling that you were over thinking the process. First off, there is already a way to analyze melodic tension etc...as I already mentioned, so turning that all upside down and trying to come up with a new system seemed excessive to me. But more importantly I always get this feeling when reading peoples thoughts on these forums that they are searching for some "magic" answer to how to sound like a jazz master. Let's face it we hear guys like Coltrane, Miles, Martino, Metheny, whoever our jazz role models are, and we try to figure out how we are going to get anywhere near what they accomplished as jazz musicians. And so we seem to be on this endless jazz quest to find the way to do it. We do some research and find all this information on the internet, which can be both good and bad, about how all we need to do is learn our chord scales or arpeggios or the altered scale or the bebop scale or how to do enclosures or all of the above or use the I-ching or sacred geometry or use tritone subs or use triad pairs...It's endless. And in that process, and the many discussions we have about it on these forums, there is clear evidence to me that people do over think jazz improvisation much of the time. I'm not saying we shouldn't ever think of all of that stuff...just that it's quite easy to get lost in the mountain of information and concepts and to lose sight of what really matters most --- being able to imagine good lines and then execute them on your instrument. And you don't need a PHd in jazz theory to do that. One only needs to look at the education and knowledge that many of our jazz legends had. It's quite possible that about 50% of the stuff everyone on this forum considers "required jazz knowledge", Coltrane and Joe Pass never heard about. All these theories and techniques we use are just to train our fingers to move in any way we want them too. I'm not saying we shouldn't do that at all...just that from my point of view people frequently are getting over attached to the mental gymnastics and not focusing enough on using their ears & maybe their "heart". It's ok to not know. It's ok to discover new sounds while you are on the bandstand. You don't need a road map with every second of every minute of your journey planned every time you blow over some changes.
And in I don't see why you would take offense at someone saying "it sounds like over thinking the whole process to me." It's not an insult to say that. Quite the opposite Henry is doing you a favor to encourage you to consider the possibility that there may in fact be such a thing as over thinking the process. It's not an objective truth. But it's worth your consideration. A person could argue that you should be thinking about every single little detail and analyzing every single note you play at all times, and if you don't do that, you are under-thinking. There would be just as much objective truth to that statement as the other. But in my own experience, the less I think, the better I play. The less I am attached to forms and formulas the more my creativity seems to benefit. We can't scientifically prove what Coltrane was thinking or not thinking or how much thinking he was doing in the practice room or on stage...but my feeling is that I get closest to playing at a level like Coltrane when I know how to turn it off, and reach that elusive "flow state".
For me my philosophy of jazz and life are one in the same. And I'm damn sure that a good portion of the problems I have in life (and society in general has) is due to over thinking. There is not even a shred of doubt in that. I could (but I won't) cite you about 100000 clear examples of how over thinking has led about 99% of the problems we face in the world today. In Zen there was this saying, I won't quote it verbatim, but the idea was that we have this tendency to "put sugar onto honey". In other words, something is perfect as it is, but we feel the need to try to make it more perfect. Similar to "if it ain't broken, don't fix it." Both hinting at our human tendency to over think or "try too hard".
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It's only overthinking if it leads to "analysis paralysis."
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It's, for me, the length of time it takes to say what it is. So I gather it's a way of organizing melodic groupings around chords that emphasize the sweet spots of the melody? Preset triads that give you the sound of the chord or the sound of the melodic phrase?
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@Guitarzen. I have to call BS a little on the "playing from the heart" and "imagining" good lines. You imagine with your damn ears. You hear lines. You don't smell them or dream them. He's talking about ways to train his ears to hear groups of notes that are not always the norm. You're more than welcome to wait for your imagination to stumble onto those sounds. Jordan is telling you how he trains himself to hear them. I get that the explanation seems heavy but I think having ways to train your ears to hear the new shit is really insanely important.
im sorry but I have a pet peeve about people implying that "feeling the music" is more important than shedding the crap out of it. The only way to bring yourself to "imagine" or intuit those sounds is to make them second nature. Through practice and training.Last edited by pamosmusic; 05-14-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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Actually I think a more productive tack would be this:
how do you guys get new sounds into a tune? What do you do to practice it? Where do you find new sounds? Are there any concepts that you guys have been working on recently and how do you get them TO the place where they're just intuitive and in your ear?
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By "maybe your heart", I meant try to give the music some emotional feeling. To say that doesn't exist is foolish. And no, you most definitely don't imagine with your ears, it's your brain.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I never said one shouldn't train ones ears. I merely support the idea that there is such a thing as over thinking. If you think I'm full of shit for saying that, then I think you are most certainly full of shit. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And I have a pet peeve about people being obnoxious know it alls. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Wrong again, you can imagine musical lines without ever picking up an instrument. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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This debate means something to me.
For example, I've been working very hard (a few hours a day) at the Barry Harris stuff over the past few weeks and I think I've reached the point of indigestion - I've started overthinking stuff and feeling overwhelmed by the volume of stuff I feel I should know (it doesn't help that I haven't got any gigs on for a few days.)
I have not mastered the material completely but I have made some headway, and now I need a rest.
I think it's cyclic. The next step is for me to take a break and not practice any of the stuff I've been working on, and go and do something else. Maybe go play some hand drums, go for a drive in the country... If I do practice it should be very hippy practice for a bit.
Anyone else find the same thing?
You need to work very hard to get to the point where you can relax into that flow state. You really need to know the tune, and have run your scales and arpeggios etc over the tune.
BUT you also must know the melody, I mean really know it. I think that's the hardest thing for me, right now...
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@Henry...
Yes. More or less. That's the long and short of it. Though the application of it is a little trickier to explain than just the mission statement. And there's far more juice that can be squeezed out than simply finding melodic sweet spots. I'm also taking each 4 note grouping and charting out different ways of playing each chord using this as the grouping. My goal is to rebuild my harmonic vocabulary so I'm not stuck in the same stuff. So if I see a chord, whether I want to sub it with something else or not, I can play beautiful, lush, and very moveable shapes to work with it. To make my comping more in sync with the soloists and more melodic.
A perfect example is the tune I'm supposed to be shedding right now. I'm playing on a gig for this guy this weekend. Mostly original stuff, and mostly modern and tricky.
The first 4 bars of the blowing section is
Bb - Ebmin - FMaj9#5 - A7b13
He's a sax player, and had he written Bb7 and Eb-7...I'd have assumed he just doesn't think too much about harmony and was approximating when he wrote FMaj9#5...that's a pretty specific chord. But the fact that he specified triads for the 1st 2 chords and than THAT spelling for the F chord let's me know he's f'n serious...he's thought about what he wants a lot here and is telling me very clearly what sounds he's looking for. So I'm using this approach, which you very eloquently summed up in just a couple of sentences) to work out some SUPER simple melodic ideas that should sound fantastic over it AND, just as importantly...more importantly really since I'm the side man and will DEFINITELY be comping but won't necessarily be asked to blow...I'm also working our some great harmonic voicings for it with some nice voice leading so I can give him what he is asking for. Interestingly enough, one way to do that (there are a few I've found) is to actually treat FMaj9#5 as an A Major triad...and to add the b7. So just to center around A7 for two bars. That's not the only thing I'm trying out. But that's a great way to treat this simply without getting stuck in the same chord voicings every time we loop through that section. So then all I'm thinking over this section is Bb major triad - Eb minor triad - A7 - A7(with a #5). Yes...there are other notes I'm bring in. But that's the skeleton. Super simple stuff.
@Guitarzen
We can't know exactly WHAT guys like Coltrane were working on. But there is plenty of audio and video interviews where we can see them talk about just how much time they're shedding. I literally just the other day watched a video from both of them and they were both talking about how much time they spend practicing. Miles, in true Miles fashion, was talking about how white people think that black people who can play are just an accident and made it very evident just how much effort and work he puts in. Coltrane was a little less disdainful about it. But he said, when asked how long he practices for, he said...if he's working on a new idea, a new system (Coltrane changes, harmonic cycles, augmented scale, whatever else it was he explored) that he'll sit all day and work on this new thing until it's natural for him. Sure, he very well may turn off his mind and just go when he's performing. But first, he's putting in countless hours getting those sounds into his ears and fingers.
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I will certainly keep that in mind for next time Originally Posted by Guitarzen
I'm really curious though. I absolutely think that a person should perform from a place of intuition and feeling BUT you practice to get to that place. I'm genuinely curious because this topic fascinates me. What do you do to actually enable that intuitive, flow state, sort of playing? Deep analysis and emotive playing are not mutually exclusive. How do you get to that space?
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I will certainly keep that in mind for next time
I'm really curious though. I absolutely think that a person should perform from a place of intuition and feeling BUT you practice to get to that place. I'm genuinely curious because this topic fascinates me. What do you do to actually enable that intuitive, flow state, sort of playing? Deep analysis and emotive playing are not mutually exclusive. How do you get to that space?
I forget the exact wording, but Wayne Shorter once said...you can't practice the unknown.
That's why I view it with the sports metaphor that I used in my previous thread. Basketball players get on the court with no idea what will happen. They have plays and strategies, sure...but they're running into the unknown with nothing accept the work they're put in and the camaraderie they've developed as a unit. That means they're all sweating their balls off at practice. Running plays over and over. Trying to make it fluid. Trying to learn to connect and read each others minds. They're going for runs. They do sprints. They hit the gym and lift weights. They do everything imaginable to improv themselves as a complete individual unit AND as a group of individuals. Then they get on the court and try to work together to create something spontaneous and in the moment.
That's how I choose to view myself and my music. And the musicians I work with. I mean really...who hasn't shown up for a gig and gotten their @$$ handed to them because they weren't putting in the work the other guys were? And who hasn't played a gig where the group sound great except that one guy who isn't cutting it. He thought he could just show up and feel his way through the music. I've seen heavy-weights GO OFF on younger players for showing up unprepared. Like go off!!! "How dare you waste my time showing up for this session without having put the time in on this tune" type stuff. That is the $#!tt!e$t feeling in the world!!!
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And yes...I've been the guy at the receiving end of that whipping'...and I don't EVER want to be him again! hahaha
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I can turn off my brain and try and let go and feel the music all I want...but if I don't know the tune and can't follow what's going on...that's just not going to be enough to cut it.
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I believe the word I'm looking for is "amen" Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Great and Interesting topic
Body and Soul as played by Dexter Gordon was the first jazz solo-transcription i did to guitar
Not knowing jazz theory back then, but grew up with it and i just loved the playing
Not this version here, but listen how the two notes you talk about in the first video both are tension, out there, till he lands on the 5th
The whole Eb D before Db is tension in reality
I think it's his way of playing it and placing the notes + the syncopated alternative backing, his drone note becomes kindof modal
Charlie Parkers take on the 2 first notes, make them just the beginning of a phrase,
Maybe change the melody instead of the chords, it's jazz after all
Coleman Hawkins
Ben Webster
Billie Holiday
Bill Evans goes completely Satie (2:15)
Ab13sus pedal
Last edited by vhollund; 05-14-2015 at 06:53 PM.
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Kenny Werner puts it that you should practice analytically ('left brain') and perform intuitively ('right brain')
For me, most things start off needing some thinking, and at some point you internalise it can just do it. This is a very non-linear process. Take a simple hand drum pattern. If you are anything like me, you need to start by working on it step by step. After a while, it clicks and you can just play the pattern without thinking. Some things seem to happen faster like this than others, for no good reason....
I think most things in music are like this, no?
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I think so. It takes awhile to internalize new information. But once you internalize basic music framework, like for us the fretboard, most of the internalization is done. Obviously learning new tunes if they're strange; not your standard ii-V bop or standard tune, it takes some memorization or applying new methods. I write a tune a few years ago that's just a series of symmetrical Maj#5s. I still have to think my way through that. I hate it but it's good for me. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I really love Hawk's solo.. it was great influence on me at the very beginning...
also Rainbow Mist - it's played over the same changes but with no reference to the original tune
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Henry,Sure. I still search and experiment and try different things. But for me, the place I'm at, it's not about over thinking. I'm at the place where it's about not thinking at all. It's come back around to when I started playing and had no idea what I was doing and occasionally magical stuff would pop out of the fretboard. Now it's the opposite. Now I KNOW all that stuff really, really well. I know the fretboard so I don't have to think about chord tones or harmonic ideas. But if I had to stop and analyze the melody I'd have to stop and think, rather than just play what I hear using the harmony I just KNOW.
for me actually the same...
I like analyzing but I do not use it directly... when I play I do not think and never did... it's like two different processes - one of it is handling some new idea to get into it... the other one is to play music just playing music...
But I am sure what I did while thinking over (or over thinking) the idea effected this 'just playing'...
I like this way - it ghoes a bit itslef - not systematic..
Whaever it is... what I like in Jordan'a approach is self-confidence and passion...
so even if there are too much words and some ideas overthought or put in a bit awkward way...
these two qualities really moveLast edited by Jonah; 05-15-2015 at 03:35 AM.
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Because it's not all to reach the destination, it's also the way to the destination what matters...If an idea is simple, why must it be explained with an extended collection of essays?
each goes its own
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So I had a bit of time to shed this afternoon in between a couple of rehearsals and felt like maybe I'd film a follow-up video to break all this down a bit. Perhaps the complexity is in the fact that I jumped right into applying this way of thinking to an entire section of music. Which is not how I first encountered and approached this way of listening/thinking/practicing. I started with listening to individual chord types and tonalities...getting comfortable with one and learning to move it all around through different keys, then moving on. Much the same way anyone would learn a scale, a mode, or an arpeggio. Only months later did I actively start applying it to tunes. My analysis of which melody notes were tense vs resolved is purely subjective. As I stated in the OP, I wouldn't expect ANYONE to agree with every individual decision I made. Giving a melody to a group of jazz musicians is like giving a script to a group of actors. Nobody would ever expect them all to interpret the character and phrase the dialogue the same way. The analysis I presented originally was just one approach....a starting point.
Anyways...I'm backing off that whole idea. This video is just a few minutes of showing you inside part of my practice routine and how simple it is. To me anyways. Listening to a chord, finding what I like, and working from there. It may help cut through the complexity. Or it may not. At least I know it will help those who are interested in this way of thinking and listening figure out how to get started.
Enjoy guys. Oh...and thanks for helping me create my first 3 page thread! wooooooo!
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Congrats
If your results and method is different than others, it's a sign individuality = possibly good
One thing I have to say is that, though i find the subject interesting, I honestly didn't read anywhere near half of your posts
No offence meant but,
You might want to condense your thoughts down a little, and use more line spacings (hit return)
I know I'm not the only one giving up on the huge walls of text
It just is'nt very reader-friendly
The videos are good
I rarely play/think Bm on a Cmaj#11, but it's true that it works and theres nothing wrong about it
At least when the chord is played alone
Later
Last edited by vhollund; 05-15-2015 at 07:56 PM.
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we all start the journey from different places ... Originally Posted by Jonah
and we're all travelling towards different destinations ...
we may meet up along the road and exchange ideas and info , maps , tips
and tricks ...
its all good ....
I think of the upper stuctures like this ...
you can play Bb over a G minor sound
you can play Bminor over a G major sound
you can play Cminor over an Amin7b5 sound
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Yeah. I mean I don't have any objections to the method. That's cool. I understand it and I do the same thing fairly often. I like major triads a whole step up a Major or dominant chord. Minor triad a half step above Dom. Triads built form the 5th, etc..
It's just your presentation. It just SOUNDS so complicated. Once I saw, "Oh THAT!" But it seemed so hard to grok what you were saying and the way you were saying it. Sorry. Not to belabor this. I can also see how this can give a leg up to students to play and get cool sounds. I'd just worry, as a teacher, that giving them these tools without really getting them to SEE why. And it's kind of hard to SEE how all those intervals work with and against the basic chord to add extensions and alterations.
Cool.
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well Henry I think (out of fairness to Jordan) it's important when talking about his presentation that we remember he was talking to YOU (us) ... ie a group of presumably competent musicians who are already very comfortable and familiar with the jazz language and have a working (probably even sophisticated) understanding of harmony. Id imagine his presentation would've been different for a high school freshman.
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