Wille Thomas Jazz Language System Overview

[MarkRhodes]

Willie plays trumpet. He's in his 80s. He's been playing jazz for over half a century. He's a character who knows his way around the jazz repertoire and has taught many young players a thing or two about improvisation.

He has a site---Jazz Everyone---with which I am not affiliated. (I joined, the 'free' membership that gave me a peek at a few lessons. Most of what I know about Willie's teaching comes from his "Making Music" series of books that I chanced upon in a music store book-sale bin years ago.)

At the link, you can see a few videos where Willed talks about "pentatonic pairs," a central concept to his teaching.
He's also offering a 30-day membership for one dollar. (I think it's normally 20 bucks a month.)

Worth checking out to see if it's something you might find useful as a player (or as a teacher.)

https://www.jazzeveryone.com/language-system-overview/

[princeplanet]

I'm intrigued, but don't have the time to listen through all the preview trailers. Can you tell us what he means by "Pentatonic Pairs"?, and what style of Jazz is he mainly coming from?

[Cunamara]

I'm intrigued, but don't have the time to listen through all the preview trailers. Can you tell us what he means by "Pentatonic Pairs"?, and what style of Jazz is he mainly coming from?

There's a video of him playing over "Giant Steps"

and explaining pentatonic pairs

[vintagelove]

I'm intrigued, but don't have the time to listen through all the preview trailers. Can you tell us what he means by "Pentatonic Pairs"?, and what style of Jazz is he mainly coming from?

I completed his whole system and can say without a doubt, it is deep. I will try to explain the basics.

Ok, so say you have a ii V I progression, the pentatonic pairs would look like this


ii... V.....I

2-3 5-6 123


This may seem simple, however look closely inside at what is happening. Each chord movement goes up by a fourth. One of the big things I took away from his system is that the 561 relationship, acts almost like a V chord in classical music. It pulls the ear to the new destination. Now if you look closely, the same relationship occurs pulling the ear from the ii to the V, then pulling the V to the I.

I found this very helpful in solidifying the sound of the key your in, especially when it never resolves, or when there are a lot of key centers.

He then embellishes that simple line in various ways. Here are a few


2, 23, 5, 56, 1

2 3 2 #1 2, 5 6 5 #4 5, 12171357 ("circle" the root)

2, 2 3 4 #4, 5, 5 6 b7 7, 1, 1 2 #2 3 (adds the 3rd to each chord, as well as chromatic "connectors")

2 3 2 #1 2 3 4 #4, 5 6 5 #4 5 6 b7 7, 1 2 1 7 1 3 5 7. (Now you have all of your chromatic connecting notes)


Notice again, all of these "moves" result in moving up a 4th. Now, look at the relationship of the chords/keys in many jazz standards, they move in fourths.

He system begins by teaching you the above, then moving it through standards. Once you have the sound of the above in your ear, you can hear the key centers really easily. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

That is essentially the first 3 steps

1- pentatonic pairs
2- add the 3rd to each chord
3- chromatic embellishment

The 4th step is classic diatonic vocabulary

The 5th step is where the bebop starts to happen. We can take that same ii V I. This time however, we focus on the dominant chord, and its extensions. (all of the numbers will be in relation to the I chord)

ii.. V
23 565#44(7th of dom7)


Now the note we landed on he calls the b7 setup, off of that b7 of the dom7 chord, we have many options, the first is to play a maj 7 chord, off of the b7 of the dom7. That gives you b7 9 11 13 of the dom7 chord. So something like this


ii.. V.......................I
23 565#44 6 1 3 2 1 6 1 2 3 5 7


I don't feel ok giving away the rest of his system, but hopefully you can make some sense and some music out of the above. The real magic of his system (along with the pent pairs) begins with playing off the b7 of the dom7 chord to get your desired extensions.


His website is laid out amazingly well, and the above just skims the surface. My apologies Uncle Willy for trying to cram all that in a few lines. Perhaps the best things is to listen to the master apply the steps himself, over a tune.

p.s. I just wanted to say that Willie doesn't make any claims that this is the "only way to play jazz". This is simply a method to get the sounds of jazz in your ear. To be applied with all the vocabulary you already know, to make great music. Also, there is so much more than the above. EVERY lesson contains a little bit of magic, if your willing to put in the work.

[princeplanet]

I'm sure his method gets very detailed and quite varied, but I must say it's hard to be sold on the opening premise that using a simple pentatonic scale to provide you with the root and ninth as a "pair" of notes for each chord of a 2-5-1 will be the pathway to a "Jazz" sound. Sure he introduces 3rds and other embellishments along the way, but how does that differ to traditional (embellished) chord tone approaches?

I'm sure a lot of players combine Pentatonics with embellished chord tone devices. What I'd like to know is - what are they missing out on by not doing it Willie's way?

[vintagelove]

I'm sure his method gets very detailed and quite varied, but I must say it's hard to be sold on the opening premise that using a simple pentatonic scale to provide you with the root and ninth as a "pair" of notes for each chord of a 2-5-1 will be the pathway to a "Jazz" sound. Sure he introduces 3rds and other embellishments along the way, but how does that differ to traditional (embellished) chord tone approaches?

I'm sure a lot of players combine Pentatonics with embellished chord tone devices. What I'd like to know is - what are they missing out on by not doing it Willie's way?

People put way too much into the "pentatonic" part of it, seemingly ignoring the vast wealth of information because of it.


Did you play through the examples I wrote? Could you not hear the changes?

Now, imagine you were starting all over again. You need some way to have your ear learn these sounds. The most basic pentatonic pair, defines the key for your ear. Now, if you have an ounce of swing in your body, you can actually play through a standard with just that, and it can sound cool. To an experienced player it is easy to say "so what", "you not playing anything special". However, many folks in the beginning have a lot of trouble getting through tunes that have several key changes. So, for a beginner, that is a huge step.

I personally found it helpful in hearing unresolved key centers (think Out of Nowhere, the Bbm to Eb). Sure you could play through the chords/scales, but your ear may still not be hearing the new key center, if you have the "pairs" in your ear, you will.

Also, the "advantage" of this approach is it gets players away from playing chord scales. Think about it, step 2 (pairs + 3rd) your playing all chord tones. The next step your adding the 7ths. Long story short, it is the old bebop approach of chord tones + chromatics.


That is just the very beginning. You would be far more interested in his diminished concepts, descending chromatics, and other more advanced vocabulary. The pentatonic pairs are just step 1. The way your looking at it, you would be dismissing mathematics, because you can't see past addition to calculus.


Here is a quick free video on a couple of his half diminished concepts. Again, this is free, his website goes much deeper, but you should get the idea that there is much more than a pentatonic scale waiting to be discovered.

The real advantage of his system, it is laid out from A to Z in an unbelievably comprehensive way. He is by far the best, most organized/systematic TEACHER I have studied from, including 2 music schools, and 20+ years of learning. In fairness, he has been teaching for 60 years....

[princeplanet]

Thanks, yes, I think I can see how his approach eventually teaches all the things in Willie's personal system in order to produce some good Jazz lines. I suppose I can only think of Barry Harris as another example of a long time teacher who has a personal method to get you all the way to where he sees one should go. Maybe it doesn't matter which way you start out, so long as you get somewhere, right?

Still, it's a big leap of faith to follow just the one approach, what if you spend 10 years with Willie, only to realize you wish you'd spent the same 10 years with Bergonzi? That's why I suggest to people starting out that they should try to get a strong idea of where their teachers are coming from. If as a trumpeter you dig Don Cherry, then learning from a guy that can play great Dixieland may not get you where you thought you were going...

[vintagelove]

Thanks, yes, I think I can see how his approach eventually teaches all the things in Willie's personal system in order to produce some good Jazz lines. I suppose I can only think of Barry Harris as another example of a long time teacher who has a personal method to get you all the way to where he sees one should go. Maybe it doesn't matter which way you start out, so long as you get somewhere, right?

Still, it's a big leap of faith to follow just the one approach, what if you spend 10 years with Willie, only to realize you wish you'd spent the same 10 years with Bergonzi? That's why I suggest to people starting out that they should try to get a strong idea of where their teachers are coming from. If as a trumpeter you dig Don Cherry, then learning from a guy that can play great Dixieland may not get you where you thought you were going...

What if you spent 10 years with someone else, only to realize they had an unorganized teaching system, where there was really no "light at the end of the tunnel". That is the case with many jazz teachers unfortunately.

Who said you only need to follow 1 approach? Certainly not Willy!!!


Bottom line, listen to the guy play (or anyone your interested in studying under), his lines are absolutely crushing.

[docbop]

People put way too much into the "pentatonic" part of it, seemingly ignoring the vast wealth of information because of it.


Did you play through the examples I wrote? Could you not hear the changes?

Now, imagine you were starting all over again. You need some way to have your ear learn these sounds. The most basic pentatonic pair, defines the key for your ear. Now, if you have an ounce of swing in your body, you can actually play through a standard with just that, and it can sound cool. To an experienced player it is easy to say "so what", "you not playing anything special". However, many folks in the beginning have a lot of trouble getting through tunes that have several key changes. So, for a beginner, that is a huge step.

I personally found it helpful in hearing unresolved key centers (think Out of Nowhere, the Bbm to Eb). Sure you could play through the chords/scales, but your ear may still not be hearing the new key center, if you have the "pairs" in your ear, you will.

Also, the "advantage" of this approach is it gets players away from playing chord scales. Think about it, step 2 (pairs + 3rd) your playing all chord tones. The next step your adding the 7ths. Long story short, it is the old bebop approach of chord tones + chromatics.


That is just the very beginning. You would be far more interested in his diminished concepts, descending chromatics, and other more advanced vocabulary. The pentatonic pairs are just step 1. The way your looking at it, you would be dismissing mathematics, because you can't see past addition to calculus.


Here is a quick free video on a couple of his half diminished concepts. Again, this is free, his website goes much deeper, but you should get the idea that there is much more than a pentatonic scale waiting to be discovered.

The real advantage of his system, it is laid out from A to Z in an unbelievably comprehensive way. He is by far the best, most organized/systematic TEACHER I have studied from, including 2 music schools, and 20+ years of learning. In fairness, he has been teaching for 60 years....

I've looked at Willie's free materials and find them interesting and always think about singing up to check it out further. His materials is what started me down the path I'm on now and that's studying pure improv not improv for an instrument. From what I've hear other non-guitar say that's how they approach studying Jazz and some have two teachers. One for the instrument and continuing to sound and technique, then a second improv teacher. If they are far enough alone they drop the instrument teacher they can do that themselves now and just keep a improv teacher/mentor. I'd say once you get to that point you do have to put your faith in someone method/system. Hopefully they have a track record so you know their method has worked. Eventually we are own teacher and its all about playing, listening, hanging out with peers talking music.

Thanks for posting you insight from Willies system.

[princeplanet]

What if you spent 10 years with someone else, only to realize they had an unorganized teaching system, where there was really no "light at the end of the tunnel". That is the case with many jazz teachers unfortunately.

Who said you only need to follow 1 approach? Certainly not Willy!!!


Bottom line, listen to the guy play (or anyone your interested in studying under), his lines are absolutely crushing.

You've listened to him more than I have, who would you say have been his strongest influences? I know that Barry Harris doesn't like a lot of the more modern stylists (say 60's onwards). Does Willie?

[MarkRhodes]

Vintagelove, I appreciate the overview you laid out above.

I am somewhat familiar with Willie's approach but nowhere near as familiar as you are. I'm going to have to dig out the book of his I have and see if any lights go off now that didn't before. (For me, the past few years have been hyper-focused on picking and thanks be to God---and JC Stylles and some fellow Forum members on the Benson picking thread---I've made enough solid progress to get back on the main road of 'now, then, what was it I hoped to pick so well?' Have to give Willie due consideration.

[vintagelove]

You've listened to him more than I have, who would you say have been his strongest influences? I know that Barry Harris doesn't like a lot of the more modern stylists (say 60's onwards). Does Willie?

Here it is from the man himself,


"It started in 1953 when I was in an army band with Wynton Kelly, the piano player with Miles Davis in the 50's. After our daily jam sessions in the barracks, I would always corner Wynton in a practice room and start the "hey, what scale was that and what chords are you thinking about when you played that." With his gentle demeanor, he would always respond, it's not what you name them it's the way you organize and play them. Then one day, he sat down and showed me these simple melody chains that he used to connect his lines through the changes when he was developing a new tune. Once he found these little melody patterns, embellished them and connected them with chromatics he was off and running.

These little melodies, I later discovered were a part of the Pentatonic system and the DNA of the jazz language, a la bebop!"



He also mentions all the other big bebop guys as influences.

[Reg]

Looks like melodic approach to access blues notes and melodic minor... the only hole seems to be the chromatic note references, harmonically. The same notes collections with harmonic reference through modal interchange also works, and has a harmonic framework for reference... and you don't have to go through the 10 step program... But maybe if your melodically challenged... you can develop two aspects for the price of one.... just joke I apologize if I offended anyone...

So basically all his relationships are, or can be created using standard jazz harmonic practice... he's just approaching from a single note perspective.

The downside is we're rhythm section players... and generally this approach leads to playing changes in the same style....
basic changes from maj/min functional harmony and added notes... misses much of the organizational harmonic aspects of playing in a jazz style. I do dig Willie, quite the character, and plays beautifully.

[vintagelove]

Looks like melodic approach to access blues notes and melodic minor... the only hole seems to be the chromatic note references, harmonically. The same notes collections with harmonic reference through modal interchange also works, and has a harmonic framework for reference... and you don't have to go through the 10 step program... But maybe if your melodically challenged... you can develop two aspects for the price of one.... just joke I apologize if I offended anyone...

So basically all his relationships are, or can be created using standard jazz harmonic practice... he's just approaching from a single note perspective.

The downside is we're rhythm section players... and generally this approach leads to playing changes in the same style....
basic changes from maj/min functional harmony and added notes... misses much of the organizational harmonic aspects of playing in a jazz style. I do dig Willie, quite the character, and plays beautifully.

Please don't take offense to this (I am pointing it out so your post does not confuse others), but there is almost nothing correct in this entire post. You go to say whats missing in a system/method you have never studied????

It has nothing to do with blue notes or melodic minor (though he addresses both on his site), and in fact helps you avoid that "scale player" sound. It also absolutely uses a harmonic framework for references. In fact he goes into detail about those harmonic frameworks. From ii V's to Rhythm Changes, non functional harmony and beyond. The one thing that is correct it he does focus on single note lines, however, there is nothing limiting you to single lines except your creativity.

Yes I am sure you will find similarities between any two approaches to playing jazz, because..... your playing jazz. It's funny actually, many times while studying other things, I find Willys wisdom buried in there somewhere. Thats part of why it's hard to teach jazz, it's so deep and varied, there can't help but be many approaches, many of which overlap.

[vintagelove]

Here are a few ii v's with some of Willy concepts applied. Keep in mind this is what I did with his material, you would likely do something completely different, as we all have different likes, influences, etc.

Tried to upload video, but the audio will have to do.





1st line, moving phrases in minor 3rds, also moving a phrase on the "diminished ladder".

8 seconds, diminished line

10 seconds, b7 setup to descending bebop scale to half dim off 3rd

14 seconds, the pentatonic pairs with chromatic passing tones.

I don't like the end of the 3rd phrase either.....

[A_Train]

vintage, that sounded great. If Willie's teaching could get me there I'd be very pleased.

I discovered Willie's website a couple of weeks ago. This can't be a coincidence. I think I got there from a Jamey Aebersold email. In any case, I took a good look at his videos and I did find them intriguing. I also like the idea of looking at a non-guitar approach to improv for a change.

Thanks to everyone who's posting on this topic.

[Irez87]

Just started learning Willie's system a month ago. The stuff is really interesting indeed, and I like how he gives you the bones. I've been added my own "meat" to the bones, and yielding some interesting lines as well. But man, cool recording Vintage!

[Reg]

Thanks for posting examples of what you believe etc.... Funny how different players hear lines differently. If you were to voice each note of what your playing you might have a different perception of what your playing... what's implied harmonically. Or maybe not.

Sorry I hear and see your pairs as blues harmony reference. And I also have harmonic reference for your chromatic notes and embellishments... but who really cares right. If it works for you great... not that much $. Yes there are a few other approaches to playing jazz...

Two Music schools and 20 years of learning... and you still didn't figure it out, maybe your finally just ready to hear and your musicianship has improved to the level you can play jazz... best of luck.

[vintagelove]

Thanks for posting examples of what you believe etc.... Funny how different players hear lines differently. If you were to voice each note of what your playing you might have a different perception of what your playing... what's implied harmonically. Or maybe not.

Sorry I hear and see your pairs as blues harmony reference. And I also have harmonic reference for your chromatic notes and embellishments... but who really cares right. If it works for you great... not that much $. Yes there are a few other approaches to playing jazz...

Two Music schools and 20 years of learning... and you still didn't figure it out, maybe your finally just ready to hear and your musicianship has improved to the level you can play jazz... best of luck.

What exactly didn't I figure out? Please, do tell me how after reading one post on a specific approach, and listening to one example demonstrating a couple of those concepts, you have miraculously ascertained everything I have studied and played.

Look, I get your trying to be cute (I must have really rustled you jimmies with my post). It's pretty pathetic though.... to get upset when someone on the internet points out you have no idea what your talking about. Maybe try to open your ears to the thousands of approaches there are to organizing these sounds, Willy's is just one, but he is a damn good teacher, maybe you should give him a try, you would learn something. Probably not unfortunately, you just would babble endlessly about how everything he does is modal interchange....... Sorry if I take the word of a guy who was playing with greats while you were in diapers, over yours.

I was simply trying to show folks who are interested where willy system will take them. You sure did a great job of derailing the thread though, your really a valued member of the site....

[matt.guitarteacher]

Looks like melodic approach to access blues notes and melodic minor... the only hole seems to be the chromatic note references, harmonically. The same notes collections with harmonic reference through modal interchange also works, and has a harmonic framework for reference... and you don't have to go through the 10 step program... But maybe if your melodically challenged... you can develop two aspects for the price of one.... just joke I apologize if I offended anyone...

So basically all his relationships are, or can be created using standard jazz harmonic practice... he's just approaching from a single note perspective.

The downside is we're rhythm section players... and generally this approach leads to playing changes in the same style....
basic changes from maj/min functional harmony and added notes... misses much of the organizational harmonic aspects of playing in a jazz style. I do dig Willie, quite the character, and plays beautifully.

Willie is great to watch, speaking or playing. You wouldn't necessarily think it to look at a picture of him or whatever, but he's one of the better personalities I've ever seen in front of the camera teaching anything. Even when he's obviously reading from his notes or whatever, he's just great fun and a good teacher.

Reg, I'd be interested in your take on something. Willie learned his pentatonic pair soloing concept from Wynton Kelly back in the day. From listening to Kelly, do you think his harmonic concept is consistent with this melodic approach, or is he maybe just thinking about harmony from a different "box" or whatever?

I'm seriously looking at doing Willie's stuff this summer with my horn-playing offspring as a kind of summer music project.

[MarkRhodes]

Well this has turned ugly.

Let's get back to Willie's teaching / approach and what a prospective student might learn from it.

Interesting clip of Willie in a 'lunchtime jam' at an Aebersold camp. The guitarist is Mike DiLido, who did the "Maiden Comping" book for Aebersold's Volume 54.

I think it's safe to say this guy knows his stuff. (Wille's solo starts around 5:00, after the organ and guitar solos.)

[docbop]

Well this has turned ugly.

Don't tell me that surprises you, it's the modus operandi of the internet.

[vintagelove]

Hows this for lightening things up.


Just got this in my email today. If this doesn't bring a smile to your face, I just don't know. Here is Willy at 15, and today at 84!!!

But, since it's the internet, I'm sure someone will find a way to hate on it.....

[MarkRhodes]

Don't tell me that surprises you, it's the modus operandi of the internet.

I think most threads here don't turn ugly. I don't think anyone here meant for things to turn ugly, either. I think it's unintended and unfortunate. But also something we should be able to move on from. That, at any rate, is my hope. I think Willie's a fascinating guy and wish him all the best.

[vintagelove]

Let's get back to Willie's teaching / approach and what a prospective student might learn from it.

I think the single biggest reason you don't see more guitar players digging into his site is many guitarist are not great readers. It's really a shame because his concepts fall amazingly well on the guitar.


As for what a student may learn from it, that depends on their level of ability, and commitment.

If your a beginner, you will surely learn to wrap your ears around the changes in tunes, and the vocabulary of jazz. If your committed, there is no telling how far you could go.

If your an advanced player, there are many valuable vocabulary tips and tricks. If you don't think you can learn anything from a guy who has played bebop for 60 years, your not only ignorant, but daft as well.

Finally, for the price, it's such a no brainer. Worse yet, he offers a free trial. If you can't put the effort into signing up for the FREE TRIAL, I can't imagine you would get very far on the instrument, with or without Willy.