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Here is where I think you push too hard. I think Willie is a great player and teacher. But some people have OTHER good teachers now, so they won't sign up for Willie's site and that is no knock on anyone. (I'm enrolled at Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Workshop now; I'm not signing up anywhere else for now because my plate is full. Overflowing, actually.) And some people have learned how to improvise and just don't want to learn a new (-to them) system. There are many good teachers and many methods. If someone is doing well with one or another of them, good for them.
Originally Posted by vintagelove
Some people may sample some of this, file it away, and check Willie out later.
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04-14-2015 09:36 PM
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Dam it... this is the secret to playing Jazz, no ifs, ands or buts. If you can't see or hear it my way... then your wrong.
Some how I don't believe Wille would put it that way, he has a organized approach for learning how to play Jazz.
like I said in my 1st post...
I do dig Willie, quite the character, and plays beautifully.
I just don't agree with some of his personal opinions of how to approach developing that language. I don't believe I ever said it was wrong...
playing over changes usually begins with spelling chord tones, playing scales, (or pentatonic pairs), you start somewhere and eventually you get rid of the training wheels and can just play in whatever the style requires.
But generally if your a guitarist, a rhythm section player, your going to spend most of your time comping, which may lead to a different approach to understanding what playing through changes is. You might hear and see chromatic notes, embellishments and even pentatonic patterns as implying changes... not licks over static chords.
Matt... I believe Wynton heard complete changes and note collections... His blues licks implied changes. He also dug deeper into blues related harmonies. Wyntons chromatic notes and embellishment which he used to help comp also implied changes. Willies approach is... sorry, somewhat vanilla, but I believe that's the point, it's just a means to an end, a somewhat faster approach to being able to develop melodic ideas and play quicker...
Wynton obviously used pentatonic scales, he came from R&B...they're great for having a somewhat blues reference with out playing all the notes... easier to use. Somewhat like beginning blues players, or rock blues players use the blues scale over changes, it somewhat has and implies tonal stability in it's self. At least in a simple level. I mean the guy died back in 70 or 71, who knows where he might have gone if he would have been able to keep playing.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Let me state it another way. I see (not just on this site) people start threads saying. "is Willy's site worth signing up for, etc"......
In the time it takes to create that post, the person could have actually signed up for the course and checked it out for themselves. How much they get from it, or want to get from it is up to them. However, doing it is always better than talking about it.
There are tons of amazing resources we have available to us today. I am sure Bruno's site is great. I can also say that Chuck Daloia's lesson set is a no brainer. For the cost of a single lesson with a real teacher, you get a ton of stuff. I plan next year on taking some of Tim Miller's course. I have several things I am shedding through before I start that.
Today it almost seems the issue can be TOO MANY resources. If you aren't aware of how long it takes yourself to internalize new vocabulary, you could do yourself a big disservice by trying to bite off more than you can chew. That being said, we should all be grateful for all the amazing resources available.
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All good points Vintagelove... but as you said part of the problem is there is too much info. and generally the people looking for the answers don't really know what they're looking for... so they look and ask for help. Maybe it comes down to the fact that most don't have the time, the energy, skill etc... to develop the musicianship to really play jazz and they're looking for an easier approach... skip the technical BS, just start playing, copy, memorize and your playing jazz, like most academic programs right.
There must be some reason why most guitarist can't read, don't understand theory, harmony etc... don't have a clue what comping is about and when they perform ...they thing the groove is something they tripped over walking in the room. But ask them to solo and their off, doesn't really matter what the rest of the band is playing. I'm obviously exaggerating to make a point...
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and "teachers", online sites, and schools catering to them and even encouraging that type of thinking just to make a dollar. Then guitarist wonder why horn players and other instrument don't respect guitar players. Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
First, I don't think many people realize how much time it takes to "master" something. As a music teacher in schools I see this all the time. You get a kid who is signed up for 4 different activities, and they end up not succeeding at any of them. I truly believe that comes from parents who never excelled at anything (that is not a bad thing btw), not realizing what level of commitment it takes to get good at something. Now if little Timmy just wants to do it for fun, thats ok, but expectations need to be realistic. The rest of your point is spot on.
In college I majored in classical guitar. I played the top of the food chain repertoire (Bach Fugues, Nocturnal, etc). So, I know exactly what it takes to master something. When I transitioned to playing jazz, I was well aware of how much work it would take, and more importantly, how long it would take before concepts would be internalized. I think where people go wrong when studying without a teacher, is they do a little of this, a little of that, but skimp on the practicing a single concept for hours and hours..... and hours... They just don't know that it takes a lot more time than they think for concepts to be mastered. Thats where a teacher (at some point in your life) is great. Everybody needs that wake up call when a teacher says, "thats not good enough". Then you realize, geez I got to practice the hell out of this. Thats when you have your breakthroughs. The good part about any of these sites is the course is usually set out for you. Staying on that course is what takes the time/energy/etc.
I think the biggest reason horn/piano/etc players are much better readers than most guitar players is they start reading in elementary school. I have young kids that are sight reading the Bach Inventions years before many kids even pick up a guitar. Second, there are legions of TERRIBLE music store guitar teachers (I taught a room down from a bunch of them!!!). It's hard to blame the kid for not knowing reading/theory/harmony when there teacher never mentioned any of it to them, and might not even know it themselves. Then there are the kids that don't practice.....
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Loved the dog in reflection. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Willie's system sounds fascinating.... I often think you can find a lot of information on what notes you can play on chord x, but less information on how to construct a musical statement.
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Yep . Big thanks to VL. Will buy that course sooner or later
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So Willie's system seems pretty good. I'm a little confused about the idea of "pentatonic pairs" though. Is he talking about pairs of pentatonic scales, or is he talking about the pairs of notes that are found within it (this is what seems to be emphasized on his website). He never comes right out and says it, though.
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He starts out with pairs of notes a whole step apart. For example, C and D. Then F and G. Those four notes are the 5th and 6th, Root and 2nd of F. Since there is no 3rd or 7th, the pairs work over major (F maj 7), minor (F-), and dominant (F7) chords. Lots of riffy swing-era heads are built on these notes. "I got rhy-thm_" (in Bb the melody notes are: F G Bb C) "I got mu-sic" (C Bb G F) "I got my gal" (F G Bb C) and then the turnaround. Simple. Effective. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Then you add the major and minor 3rd. Then the seventh. Then altered tones....
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Thanks Mark. That's more or less what I thought, but he never comes right out and says it, so I wanted to get confirmation.
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It's interesting. Those are basic upper neighbor tones and their resolutions. Basic tension and release. They're also pretty safe on most chord qualities. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I think that's the point. You start out improvising with safe notes, to get the sound and the idea. Then you add in the more challenging notes later. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
More importantly these "pairs" (which if I had to put into words) pull your ear to the next chord in the cycle
Dm....G7.....C
D-E....G-A...C-D-E (added third of the chord, thats the second step of his system)
Now, the magic happens when you start playing these through tunes, it links together the changes and keys.
Remember folks, the pent pairs are the very first step. If you stick with it in no time you are playing off the extensions of chords and really playing bebop language.
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I don't really see it as being hugely different from any other bebop scale derived method, but I do like the idea of starting with safe, melodically useful notes. I think if I were going to use this method to teach beginners, though, I wouldn't use the term "pentatonic pairs". I'd just present them as two notes that go well with each chord, and then build from there.
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Vintage, how long did it take you to get through the whole program?
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what a joke,
Willie is a fabulous player, you only have to hear/see him playing all the things...........you want to be,
it seems like a lot around here really dont hear, good vocab unless its a NAME playing it,
Willie does not do the chord Thang, if you want Bebop vocab, this one of few places, again one of few places that serves it up.Lot of BS selling courses tuition, waffle
Willie unlike the so called actually describes what he is playing, there are a few technical players, who sniff a lot an esoterically stare past you, their lines are not great, lots of chops, but then a lot of kids also can whizz around, thats now,
The truth YES, Willie is a little difficult to get into granted ITS work, he is not the only route,
but everything he does swings its musical. forget the pentatonic bull...., it is not that at all.
I am not affiliated with him at all, he is one of the last true bop players, like Barry Harris, its a huge privilege for us that they are still around really passionately doing this, i hardly think Willie or Barry do it it for a pension guarantee, its from their heart it how they breathe.
Too many courses dvds videos, degree courses, in shit. None of the best now are even close to WES, Barney Joe etc etc Django.
Holdsworth yes, but Allan is not young anymore, most dont know what it is he does.
No apologies for being direct. Again not the only route, but certainly worthwhile.
Oh Wynton played in Miles band did you?
Bruno Greene offer as much vocab as Macdonalds
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Can you see that they are formed from the pentatonic scale of each key?
(C) De Ga Cd(e)
As far as being different from other methods, it's pretty hard to say that based on step 1. I would argue it's actually quite different as instead of a focus (in the beginning) on linking 3rds and 7ths, it starts by teaching you to play through the cycle, and it does it by playing through actual bebop tunes instead of learning 800 ways to play an arpeggio.
Where his course really shines is getting you playing the upper structures of chords, you just have to stick with it.
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Originally Posted by Dio666
Within a year it completely changed the way I heard music. It literally was that big of an impact. Don't get me wrong I could play "jazz" before that, but it sure as hell wasn't bebop.
I'm going to contact Willy and see if I can get his permission to share an overview of his system. Im sure it would clear up a lot of questions.
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Thanks for your thoughts , Vintage. Good breakdown. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-25-2016 at 01:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by vintagelove
Vintage, that would be good, Willie system does need a little explaining at the end of the day its totall bebop land,
not that easy to explain on a forum in two or three paragraphs,
Barry Harris give workshops all the time or did, Willie similar and perhaps i was a little quick of the mark, and i guess on a quick look at Willies system one may think OH YeaH, because the whole internet and today people want INSTANT.
Studying/playing bop/modernjazz or any music seriously takes a lot,
Brecker/Coltrane spent a longggggggggggg time studying, Wes played all the time.
So i think your suggestion to ask Willie is great,
No disrespect to Willie whatsoever, but I do think it needs to be a tiny bit clearer as to what it is about,
I use Willie as an application/vocab resource, although i know this stuff, heres the thing i dont have the time to sit around transcribing endless stuff, I dont need to, and dont really want to play like anyone, yet all of them ( if that makes sense) Reg has got this, he does not sound like Wes/Benson/Pass./Kurt or whoever he has a distinct flavour/personality/style, which is great. He has elements of all. Willies stuff may not be perceived as guitar orientated,
but YO it is the lines are right there. LHF low hanging fruit.
Pick it.
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An important aspect of what Willie teaches is that by limiting note choices in the beginning, he forces the student to work with lots of different rhythms.
In one of his "Making Music" books he writes a head over the "On The Trail" changes that he calls "On the Road Again." Simple head, but catchy. Then he plays a solo which sticks close to the head but it too is catchy. Sounds like jazz. Is jazz. Swing-era, not bebop, but jazz. Then he has another chorus that is less reliant on the head but that still uses just a few notes.
Then he does some ii-V lines in twelve keys, where he plays the line and there's a break for you to play it along with the band. The notes are easy but the rhythms move from simple to highly syncopated. You realize how much of the music is in the rhythm and articulation.
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Yes, of course. I just think the term is confusing. At least it was to me, and I've been playing for 35 years. Originally Posted by vintagelove
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Have you got it to where you're moving it through ii v's going through different keys? That may help clear it up. Either way, it's just a name. Good luck!!!
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